Bob Ulicny - Shamanism, Dying, and Beyond™

In this episode of the Way of the Shaman podcast, host Kerri Husman speaks with Bob Ulicny about his transformative journey into core shamanism. Bob shares his early experiences with nature, his emotional struggles as a paramedic, and how shamanism provided him with a path to healing and acceptance. He discusses the impact of addiction and recovery on his life, the significance of psychopomp work, and the importance of understanding cultural heritage in the context of shamanism. The conversation highlights the power of emotional expression, the beauty of connecting with spirit, and the profound experiences encountered in shamanic workshops.

Guest: Robert "Bob" Ulicny
Bio: https://www.shamanism.org/faculty/robert-ulicny/
Website: https://shamanichealingpath.com/

Host: Kerri Husman, MD
Bio: https://www.shamanism.org/faculty/kerri-husman/
Website: https://www.mammothhills.com/services/courses-in-core-shamanism/

Workshop: Shamanism, Dying, and Beyond™
https://www.shamanism.org/workshops/shamanism-dying-and-beyond/

Learn more about shamanism and shamanic workshops by visiting the website of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies: https://www.shamanism.org

Transcript

Introduction to Bob Ulicny and Shamanism

Speaker 0:07

You are listening to the Way of the Shaman Podcast with your host, Kerri Husman. The content shared in the Way of the Shaman Podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional or therapeutic advice. The views expressed by the host and interviewees reflect their personal experiences and opinions. Please consult with an appropriate licensed professional if you have any medical, psychological, or legal concerns.

Kerri 0:39

Hello, and welcome to the Way of the Shaman podcast. I'm your host, Kerri Husman, and today Bob Ulicny is joining us from Windsor, Ontario, Canada. We'll be talking about his journey and learning more about his experiences with core shamanism, as well as discussing the workshop, Shamanism Dying and Beyond. Welcome, Bob.

Bob 1:02

Thanks for having me, Kerri. It's wonderful to be here.

Kerri 1:06

So glad you could join us. So right off the bat, I'd love to learn more about how Michael Harner's work and core shamanism found you.

Discovering Core Shamanism

Bob 1:18

It's a very good question. I was seeing uh an energy healer. Um her name was Roxanne. Wonderful, wonderful lady. She's past now. Um, anyways, over the course of of our friendship, uh she had meant, she talked to me. She says, You have you you're a healer. You should really pursue this and and find a path uh that would be that's comfortable for you. So as you do, you know, searching on the internet, reading different things, falling down rabbit holes, um, I had come across uh shamanism. Um and I don't remember exactly whether it was the foundation, um, but reading about shamanism, and um it really triggered something deep inside of me, uh, brought me back to childhood of uh being out camping, um talking to the trees, the rocks, the animals. Uh just loved being immersed in that environment. And to me, it was always natural that you could connect with these things, um, these spirits, I guess, now that I I know, you know, to use the proper name. I just knew instinctively as a child though, uh, and feeling, oh gosh, just feel so much. Feeling being around people, uh, emotions, and just this depth and this energy, um, which I don't know if you want to we'll get into that later, I guess. But um, anyways, getting back to the the the story, uh reading about shamanism and hearing them describe this connection with all things, everything's alive. It was just this uh this moment, this the the clouds parted of oh my gosh, I've always known that. But as we do, as we grow up, we're supposed to forget these things. Fairy tales are for children, ghost stories are make-believe, uh, you can't talk to animals, you know, all these uh these trainings that are given to us by by as we uh grow into adulthood. But inside I always knew I just learned to to shut up about it um and not not talk about it, uh, but always knowing for me it was the truth. Anyways, reading about shamanism, the connection, uh shaman, uh this is this is what shaman do. I just knew this was for me. So, of course, the next step, how do I learn more about this, or where where can I learn more about this?

Kerri 4:03

Sure.

Bob 4:04

Uh at the time, Glenn Campbell, who's retired now, wonderful man, wonderful man. Wonderful teacher. Well, yeah. Uh I was I was lucky enough. Um, I guess I don't know, one of life's little miracles, synchronicities, happened to be teaching in my Windsor, uh the in a month's time. Um immediately signed up for it. I gotta do this. This is this is amazing. I gotta learn more about this. Again, um, just a bit of a leap of faith, I guess, too, at the time. Um, but, anyways, I had gone back, visited uh Roxanne for another appointment, and she was so excited, she met me right at her front door, and she's like, I know what you gotta do. I found the perfect thing for you. And without even talking to each other or her even knowing I was reading about shamanism, she had this pamphlet of Glenn's workshop, the exact same one I'd signed up for. So it was like, oh, this is so meant to be. This is this is where I belong. Um, and it was just from there. I'll be 100% honest. I mean, I was I was open-minded, uh skeptical, a little nervous in that first workshop, but the work itself, um that first journey to non-ordinary reality just changed everything that I could connect directly with spirit, and then you know, learning more of how we connect with animal spirits, the the shamanic worldview that everything is alive is that that classic coming home feeling people talk about. Uh, and it was just it was wonderful, it really was.

Kerri 5:50

Thank you for sharing, Bob. It really sounds like you know, that very early on you knew everything was alive, you had that experience. I'm guessing here that the rocks and trees you were talking to and the animals you were talking to were talking back, right? They were they were connecting with you in at some level that maybe others couldn't discern or appreciate or understand. And then to find out later that there's there's a methodology to this that you can really understand how to connect with them here in the middle world as you were as a child, and then in the compassionate realms. Beautiful. That's terrific.

Bob 6:29

Another for me, it's something I still uh work on, uh but sh but through shamanism is really, especially for a male, and I mean it's not a cop-out, but uh it's fact that we're taught to stuff our emotions. And I could my whole life I always struggled with, and it I mean it led to other issues in my life, but um this emotional component of of connecting with things, but to see an injured animal, an animal killed on the road, um just uh being emotional, feeling, uh being alive, um and again, you know, growing up, uh, and I'm not you know blaming, but it just the way things go of uh classmates, peers, uh teachers, a big brother, a big sister. Oh, Bobby's the sensitive one, Bobby's the little baby Bobby cries all the time, and so again, it's that process of this isn't acceptable, and finding little tricks to to not express your emotion, even though you're dying inside uh with just such sadness or or uh emotion, and learning, you know, anger and laughter are the only two things that are allowed in life. So, again, finding shamanism, the the crying healer, uh, that we cry at the joy, the beauty, the the wonder of healing someone, of connecting with spirit and the beautiful things we see and experience, uh, the sorrow of clients coming in that that desperately need help. Um just being able to share all that and feel all that, and it's accepted and celebrated, you know, crying in the workshops, laughing, you know, till you your sides hurt in workshops, that full range of emotion uh was just a wonderful again coming home to you know, I'm not I'm not the one that something's wrong, you know, I'm not overly sensitive, I'm I'm fully alive and human. Um, and that's just such a a freedom to be able to to be me.

Kerri 8:58

Beautiful, Bob. I couldn't have said it better myself. That is so important. And yes, uh being the one who cries easily, you know, coming from a family of criers, my whole family's quite sensitive, so I, you know, I know what that was like. They couldn't really console me as a child. And you know, I was connecting with my deceased ancestors. I grew up in the bedroom my grandpa died in. And you know, I had a relationship with him my whole life growing up. And even though other people would have thought, that doesn't make any sense.

Bob 9:33

Yeah, yeah. You know that to be true. I mean, you have direct experience, but again, it's this I don't even know where it comes from, but you so many people are just they I don't know if it's a fear base, but they just shut it down of nope, that's not real, no, it's all make-believe, no, and you're like, but I am I am talking with this person, we're communicating, we're we're having this relationship. Uh I don't understand why you can so confidently say no, it's it's make-believe.

Kerri 10:07

Right. Especially when it's so potentially supportive, powerful, helpful, nurturing, all the things.

Bob 10:15

Yeah.

Kerri 10:17

So so while you had these experiences as a child, and then you got into your career path of being a paramedic and and you were a paramedic for quite a while before you found, of course, shamanism. How did that potentially change or support or make more complicated your work as a paramedic? Or all the above?

Bob 10:47

Yeah, that's a whole progression of um again, you know, touching on this, this, this, oh, he's the sensitive one. Um my Mrs. Hall across the street uh always called me Bobby. Uh I can't believe you're doing that job. You're you're you're so sensitive. Um, she was just amazed uh that I was even pursuing it. But to start working, um, especially it was 1987, 1988 when I started. Um very much that uh macho, straight face, nothing bothers you, if you can't handle it, go drinking or quit was you know kind of the the two methods of help. Stuff it away and keep moving. Um which funny funny enough, um I was well versed at I had learned many coping mechanisms. Um, just I call them little tricks of of even if you want to to feel anything, how to numb. Uh I got really good at numbing, um shutting things down. Um and I thought it was a badge of of courage. I thought it was uh nobody nobody can tell, nobody can see that I'm dying inside. I therefore I have succeeded. I am as good as them, and I will never ever let them know what I'm feeling inside. Uh it made it challenging, it really did. Um in the way too of over the years, it it certainly has evolved. We've uh I've grown more confident, and it's becoming more accept it became more acceptable, but those first few years you just had to be this rigid, tough. Um so holding a uh uh a patient's hand was like, what's wrong with you? You know, even just those small kindnesses were uh frowned on by the senior old guys. Um, but no, I I just I knew it was comforting to the people, and I just I that I always pursued for them, but for me, no, it was all about this shutting down, this numbing. Um so I slowly it was always directed outwards. Uh kindness, compassion, love, all that was always directed outward. I never got any of that. I never allowed myself to feel. It was all about staying numb. Because that was the only way I thought I fit into society or I fit into this culture. Um, you know, while I must be defective. I was I was told growing up I was overly sensitive, I cried too much, I felt too much, you know, all this stuff. Uh I'm the one who's defective, I'm the one who's broken. Um but look, I can I can fix I can act like you. I can pretend to be like you and and uh wear the mask, and none of you will ever know that I'm still dying inside with emotion, uh, or overwhelmed with emotion, I guess would be more accurate. Um so yeah, I was allowed outwardly to to you know share my compassion and my love, uh my kindness, you know, as well as you know, obviously the medicine part.

Kerri 14:29

Right, right, of course.

Bob 14:31

Um again, bringing in that that unknown connection with spirit, um we do we deal with a lot of death, natural, expected, traumatic, unexpected deaths. Um walking into houses or or arriving on scene, um feeling souls that, you know, again, with the dying and beyond. Hopefully we'll get into that later, but uh at the time I didn't know. I just simply didn't know, but I knew I could feel who was still there, whose soul was still there, who uh was happy they were moving on, that they were out of their body, that they were uh in transition, that joy some had already gone, um despite our best efforts, and it was always best efforts. I mean, it never influenced my treatment of the of the person. Um but again, just you know, oh my gosh, if I ever said this out loud, they they'd lock me up, you know. You're just too woo-woo. Like, whoa, whoa, if I ever said that to the old guys I started with, man. Um, so again, bite your tongue, stuff it away. Um just uh yeah, file it away for I don't know, someday in the future or something, or maybe maybe it'll it'll stop, and I can just uh be like them because apparently they're the standard for normal.

Kerri 16:08

Um so there was an evolution though, wasn't there?

Struggles with Addiction and Recovery

Bob 16:12

There really was. Um sadly, it it takes a really rough turn because numbing, stuffing all of this away became harder and harder. Um so uh addiction, alcohol, drugs, uh that was the easy button for me. Take this, everything shuts off, life is easy. I don't even have to actively work at numbing. I can chemically numb myself. Um which I thought I'd found the miracle cure. Um I was free. Uh I just got to exist, you know. Like it really did it. Such a funny feeling. I mean, I mean, beside the the the awfulness of of what addiction, active addiction does to your life, um, I really felt I'd found the the easy button for life. Um, obviously, temporary solution. Thankfully, um my partner at the time recognized that I needed help, um arranged for that. I went off to treatment for addiction uh for the remainder of all my days. Um I'll always be thankful to her for saving my life because she truly did. Um I'm coming up on 20 years clean, um, which is uh one day's a miracle, let alone you know, to have years of of clean time. Um so then comes my turning point, obviously. Um is not an option. Numb numb is obviously not healthy. Um so what do you do with it now? Because now you don't have uh that chemical switch to turn everything off.

Kerri 18:07

Right.

Bob 18:07

Um now you have to deal with everything. Here comes years of emotions that you've stuffed away, uh, of memories, of just everything. And at first, honestly, it's like drinking out of a fire hose. You're feeling again, you're alive again. I'm not going back to what I was. Uh I can't stuff it away anymore. I don't want to stuff it away anymore. So what do I do with it?

Kerri 18:33

Um And you were still working as a paramedic. I mean, you come back from treatment, you're still working as a paramedic, so you're still in the thick of it. You're still in these tragic situations, trying to do the best medicine you can, trying to save these lives. And what did you do with that emotional content? How did you manage it?

Bob 18:57

With a lot of help, with a lot of kind people. I mean, the obvious, you know, the 12-step programs, uh to to continue working, uh, learning to to to stay clean, um stay away from active addiction. Um still brings tears to my eyes. Um, my very first sponsor told me he would believe in me until I learned how to believe in myself.

Kerri 19:23

Wow.

Bob 19:24

Um and at first, you know, you just as you do, you just kind of like whatever. Um but yeah, 20 years later, that still brings tears to my eyes of how powerful that was.

Kerri 19:36

Because he meant it. Or she meant it, yeah.

Bob 19:39

He did. Uh, with all his heart. Um using that as a motivation of um he sees something in me, and I want, he's such a nice guy. I want to show him he's not mistaken, that I'm worthwhile. Um, you know, the psychotherap uh psychologist, um, working with psychologists, uh learning to express emotions.

Kerri 20:07

Um being okay with those tears, right?

Integrating Shamanism into Healing

Bob 20:11

Yeah, which is still an ongoing thing, you know, that that male thing of like, no, no, no. But they they do come more freely. Um, you know, addressing um the traumas I've seen, you know, uh post-traumatic stress. Um again, emotions, right? You it's working through the emotions of the things you were exposed to, um freeing those emotions because stuffing in a way just keeps you stuck, but keeps that trauma alive in you when you process it and allow it and to go, yes, that was horrible to see. Uh didn't affect my care or my treatment. I was able to be my very best as a as a paramedic. Um, but after that, I'm still very much a human uh who has an emotional response to what we just witnessed. Learning that alone was a huge step. You know, you're not this putting on the uniform didn't make it uh you immune to all of this. Um and then uh I mean that's how I met Roxanne, right? Because I mean, as as as helpful as uh the psychologist is, the working through the trauma, um, I just always felt something was missing. Another component, uh, another piece of the puzzle. Um, and strangely enough, I I I I I don't know, I'm blessed. Maybe I know it's helping spirits. Um reawoken something in me of of in college talking about uh you know, good health is defined as you know, physical, mental, spiritual, the whole thing. And you know, just one of these weird. Thoughts that at the time just pops in the back of your head, and you're like, Well, I'm missing the spiritual aspect of this recovery, this this new life. Um and I mean, raised Catholic, uh, but church wasn't uh going to mass wasn't that direct connection with spirit, I think, or direct connection to something that I was looking for. Uh and again, just I don't know how uh my friend found this name, this Roxanne, and um, well, I'll go see her, you know. If it if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

Kerri 22:37

Um, you know, and did she offer core shamanism, or did she offer some type of energy healing, like reiki or healing touch, or something like that?

Bob 22:45

That was always the mystery with Roxanne. I think she was a combination of a bit of Reiki, a bit of healing touch. Um she was another one though. I mean, getting to know her over the years, um, when she was a small child, she remembers playing with with power, with energy in her hands, and she was always amazed that the other kids couldn't see the cube of power she was holding in her hands. Um and, you know, right from that first appointment of you know, skeptical but open-minded, uh willing to heal, willing to change. Uh, I, you know, it doesn't matter specifically what she did, but she changed something in me. And I know now, uh looking back, it's power. She filled me with power. I was so devoid of power that that just motivated and drove me forward to continue this healing path. Um, poor Rox. I would just talk, talk, talk like a chattering monkey in a tree. What are you doing? How's this work? What's this? Because yeah, from that first appointment of how are you doing this? What is this? I wanted to know everything, and I think that's probably what uh, you know, and telling her, you know, like I from grade school, uh as young as I can remember, I've always liked helping people. You know, we'd be playing football and someone would get hurt at recess. You know, I could either take care of them or have the smarts to say, oh, this is this is too much, we gotta get a teacher for this, you know. So there was always that caregiving, and she's like, you have to, you know, do more than the physical medicine, you know, like being a paramedic's great, but there's more in you than that. And I mean, again, uh making it the story come full circle eventually, long-winded, um, of finding shamanism, and and now everything makes sense. Yeah. Um and specifically dying and beyond, uh I mean, I as we all do, we start with the way of the shaman. Um, I took extraction, which uh actually I took the way of the shaman twice because you know I wanted to just make sure I wasn't imagining that I'd actually found people that that knew.

Kerri 25:13

So you had to work on that convincing yourself that I wasn't just making it all up. Yeah, this was real.

Bob 25:19

Yeah.

Kerri 25:20

And and that second round with the way of the shaman really helped you go, okay, yeah, this is this is something.

Bob 25:27

Yeah, and really, you know, um, I can believe it or not, uh there's times I can be quite um I hold myself back or like, oh, don't say that. But that second time being in a classroom with Glenn, you know, being able to talk to him, you know, afterwards, or or just even in class, like, you know, uh feeling confident enough to ask some more questions and and understand this more. And like, oh, this shamanic path is this is for me. This is what I know instinctively to be, or it is real, it's not even a belief, it's it's it's a knowing, and that other people know this too, uh was utterly amazing. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't, you know, uh making it up because I so desperately wanted to be, you know. Um, but no, very kind, very gentle. Uh I think a great thing Glenn said was, I'm glad you came skeptical with an open mind because you don't want blind faith in anything. You want to understand it and learn it and uh you know not be duped, you know. Have your direct connection with spirit, have your your direct experience that that independent spirituality that we talk about so much. Um, but anyway, sorry. Um yeah, the extraction workshop, I think, I didn't know if it was purposeful or if that was just what was next. Uh, but anyways, taking extraction, helping people, being able to heal beyond like a power animal retrieval or passing power to go to that next level of healing someone uh was a very powerful learning experience. Um working merged with a helping spirit was was challenging, you know. You mean you're you're learning your skills um to to merge and to actually now be active while holding a merge was a challenge.

Kerri 27:32

There's a learning curve there. It's a practice.

Exploring Death and Dying in Shamanism

Bob 27:34

Um but I think my eye my eyes were always on as soon as I think it was death, death, dying and beyond was what it was called at the time, but you know, yeah, shamanism, dying and beyond. Um as soon as I saw that that was even it existed, I was like, that was that was my goal. I wanted to do whatever it took to get to that workshop, and was not disappointed at all. Because from morning session of day one, it was like this explains so much of my life, especially my working life of spirit, um, process of dying, uh, people have died, where are these souls? Um what is going on when I've been with patients who have died on me despite my best efforts, despite doing everything right, they're still leaving.

Kerri 28:27

Right.

Bob 28:28

Um that you're the last person they see here on this earth was such a powerful moment to experience, but that it's beyond curiosity. It's it's where did you go? Where are you now? Where is your soul? Because I can still feel part of you, but I know you want to go. Where are you going? You know, so to be in the the Dying and Beyond workshop, um, to be able not only just to be taught, I mean, being taught is great, the knowledge base is great, to to actually journey, to go and connect, to see firsthand and experience firsthand what what is going on uh was both comforting and and beautiful is the only other way I can describe it, I think. I was just in awe and and comfort it. Yeah, comfort was a huge one, not only for me, I mean as we get older too, mortality becomes less of a an intellectual concept and more of a uh realistic. Um but that my patients, uh I'm responsible for my patients, I've always felt that. But that they were comforted, that they were safe, that it wasn't a fearful process for them. They weren't just cast into this unknown realm um and and and were terrified.

Kerri 30:04

Um so you had that knowledge, even though you weren't, you know, proselytizing, you weren't telling them all these things as they're passing and you're in the back of the you know ambulance, right? You know, you've got your training, you know that. You know that they're going to be going to a peaceful, wonderful, powerfully compassionate place. You're you're carrying that knowledge with you as you're working on them, hoping to have a good outcome, but knowing that that's not always the case. So you were able to carry that with you confidently, which is you know, it's a priceless gift to that person at the very end of their life.

Exploring the Afterlife: A Personal Experience

Bob 30:45

Yeah, and I mean for them it's nice to know that they were comforted. Um and for me, I mean, uh hopefully it doesn't sound selfish, but it um I didn't feel as bad that despite our best efforts, they still died because I knew that their journey was continuing. I mean, this was their time to to transition. Um and yeah, you know, no matter what anybody did, right, this this was going to take place and that they were going to this beautiful place in these wonderful spirits. And then, you know, after doing this, you know, taking this workshop, learning how to be a psychopomp, um, being able to check in on them to make sure they did, you know, if they needed help, I was also available. Um funny story. Uh just one I remember in particular, I had done that with it. It had been weeks, months. For some reason, I don't know. For me, it's always doing dishes, and my window looks out over my front porch. Um, and I always say it's the light reflecting on the blinds, but it's not. They seem to wait on my front porch uh when they when when when these spirits need some help when they're when they're uh having difficulty in middle world. Um I've learned that trial and error, you know. No, no, no, no, you're making it up. Um but um trusting, yeah. The souls, the souls are kind. They they that's how they get my attention uh when I'm doing dishes that are on the porch. I can see them. Um but anyways, this patient had passed. Um and just for some reason, you know, like I say, it was you know, a month later, uh was doing some psycho pump work, and I'm like, I should check on him, you know, just to make sure. Uh he recognized me, which I had never had. I mean, I've never psychopomped anybody I've known. And I mean, he was only my patient for, you know, what, the 20 minutes, hour kind of thing. But we recogn I recognized him, he recognized me, which is kind of a strange thing to have happen in a journey. Um, but we talked about what had happened, and and you know, that I'm also a shaman, that I can help him if he when he's ready to continue on. And he, you know, continue on where? You know, like he thought he was in in heaven, you know, the the the the the the religious heaven, you know, and it's like, well, no, there's more if if you want. I mean, if you're happy here for now, explore, learn, grow. Um, but it's completely up to you. And um, I know it kind of goes against what we're taught in the workshop, um, that we're not there. And he wasn't stalling for time, though. It wasn't anything like that. Um, he just generally wanted to know, needed more information. And um he finally decided that that no, he'd had a good look around and met everybody that he wanted to meet, and um just didn't know there was more. So off we went um to to where to where the souls are brought. And uh yeah, he was very thankful. And uh as as it happens, it was just a really quick goodbye, you know, thank you, and off he went. And I just that was my my one like personal experience with all the the years of doing psychopomp work. So uh I just I thought that one was was a little special, it's always stuck in my memory.

Kerri 34:30

Right. Well, I mean, you were respecting his wishes, you know. He he was um thinking that this was all there was, right? And you were able to share with him that there was more. He was when he was ready, he he went.

Bob 34:44

Yeah.

The Process of Helping Souls Move On

Kerri 34:45

So yeah, we had a a friend who would hunt on our property, and a year or so after his death, he was sitting in our pickup truck, and I was we were out planting trees, and I walked by the pickup truck and you know, kind of do that side-eye thing. Okay, um, do you need help? And you know, he comes out of the truck and stands beside me and I would I would just out because it was hunting, it was the time of year, right? To set up his deer stand. Standing there and he's like, Well, do you need help? And he's like, Oh no, no, I'm good. I said, Well, when you feel you're ready to go, you'll let me know. And I took three steps and then right beside me, I'm ready to go. And proceeded to do the psychopomp work. And time is different for them. You know, sometimes they're when you find them, they're still circling the car crash that they departed in six years ago, and their spouse has moved on, and they're still looking for their spouse. You know, and how it's experienced by them is something we can't fully appreciate because we're in these human bodies, but but you're right, you know, you're you're respecting where they are at in their process and when they're ready to go, you can provide that assistance, which is absolutely priceless and beautiful.

Bob 36:10

Very much so, and and uh even that is is a beautiful part of the work that you're there to assist, uh you're not there to be tour guide, you're not there to argue world religion, you know, belief systems, anything of that. Um if you're ready, you know, I I'm here to help. You know.

Kerri 36:34

Keep it simple.

Bob 36:35

Yeah. Yeah. And I like that that approach to it, you know, because uh it's just a beautiful process. And it's amazing too to to when you get to them, they know. Uh for the most part, yeah, they're they're they're ready, they know where they want to go, uh, or they're not. It's a very brief, you know, nope, no, this is fine. You're like, well, that's fair. If you change your mind, or when you become ready, let me know. You know, I'll be back. I try to do this often, so if you do see me or another shaman, you know, ask them for some help and and and we'll help you out. That's all right. The sad part inversely though is how much uh, you know, you learn in the workshop, you know, this is generations or millennia of of, you know, certainly a couple hundred years of of this work being neglected with the lack of shaman, lack of psychopom work being done. How much of a a backlog, how many souls need help, that um, you know, there's suffering beings, they're ready to move on, but there's just not enough, you know, as as much work as we're trying to do and and and help these souls move on, there's just such, you know, you're trying to play catch up all the time.

Kerri 37:52

Right.

Bob 37:52

Um that was that was a revelation to to find that out. Um but again, you know, being taught that in the workshop, you know, during lecture, and then to journey and see it firsthand, you're like, oh gosh, you know, he wasn't just telling us this, you know, to to encourage us to do this work. It's it's real. Uh it's quite amazing.

Cultural Heritage and Shamanism

Kerri 38:15

Um that's why some shamanic practitioners, this is all they do. You know, they're not really working with the living, they're only working with the deceased. Because there's so much work to be done. And many people just do this as a part of giving back to the planet, giving p back to the world, and the practitioner is doing this on their own time because it's that important. So I'm glad that you've you know, your stoop somehow has the little the you know, light shining for them to know that they can find you. So that's wonderful. So if if I can, I'd like to shift gears for a moment and talk a little bit about your own cultural heritage. Or disconnect in in in in the case that you've described. So can you tell us a little bit about your cultural heritage and how of course shamanism has fit into a place where you didn't have connection? Um can you tell that story?

Bob 39:15

I never um my my mother's my grandfather my grandfather, my mother's father. Um again, I mean, you gotta go back in time. I mean, this is what were the 19 the teens, 19 teens, 1920s, um, is when uh he would be born, roughly. Uh the mystery of him is uh family legend is that he's from the western plains of the United States. Uh, I don't know if that possibly ogla Sioux, uh Lakota, I've heard. Um to me, I mean, meeting him a few times and seeing pictures of him, he's definitely has the the presentation, uh the genes, the the structure of uh full-blooded um Indian Aboriginal. Um anyways, there's just like I mean, there's no documentation. I mean, I think because of the time and that he was was Indian, there was no no birth records. Um it's the mystery and to to use a phrase. Um great-grandfather would never talk about it. Uh my mom never got any answers. Even my grandfather himself, you know, he knew he'd look different. Um, was told he was adopted, doesn't know how he got from somewhere, the Dakotas maybe, um, to London, Ontario, Canada, uh, how that whole adoption process happened. There was no documentation of that. So was he was it a church thing that that he was taken? Um he really didn't get, as far as I understand it, didn't get full documentation until he became a Canadian soldier for World War II. They kind of created him.

Kerri 41:19

Um something on they put something on paper.

Bob 41:22

Yeah, yeah, there were other than that, there was no like legal again. This is as far as I know, the family mystery. Nobody people have pieces and parts, and is it true, isn't it? Um, all I know is like looking at him, it's like, yeah. I mean, he's not your typical European white male kind of thing. Um, so and it's funny. I mean, my mom tells me stories of uh growing up. I mean, grade school was called half-breed was the slur at the time. It was something to be ashamed of, and as we know, the residential schools were flourishing, sadly, during that time of uh, you know, beat the Indian out of them. So it was something to be hidden. No, I'm not, no, I'm not, no, I'm not. Um, I mean, I've never done, I have not done yet 23andMe, but now I mean talking about this really makes me more curious of maybe I should. I've thought about it off and on, I just never have. Um and the other side is I mean, part of it doing this work, I think, it just feels natural, like it comes from somewhere. I feel connected to more than um just nature. Like there's there's ancestor spirits um involved in this. I haven't had a a meeting with them yet, but I know they're there. Just this this this knowing. Um I'm guessing the lineage on my grandfather's side. Um and funny enough, I I don't know, I think I look, I think I look European. I we were saying earlier, uh looking in the camera here, I look like my dad, who is uh a Slovak. Uh my grandparents on his side, my my grandparents were Slovaks, right, from Europe. Uh and that's what I see in my face. Um but yet, you know, I'll be talking, especially at work, people will come up to me and say, you know, are you uh, you know, in our area, you know, Walpool Nation, the Caldwell, not, you know, are are you an Indian? Are you part Indian? And um I'm like even then, I mean, I shouldn't laugh, but uh depending on on the time and who I'm talking to, sometimes it's just a simple no, sometimes I'll get into the whole story, you know. Um because some people are just looking for that quick yes or no. Um but yeah, I just I'm a little reticent. To talk about it because again, there's no documentation, there's no proof, and I don't want to be accused of uh pretending a lineage that I'm not sure that I have. Uh, but certainly others, uh, especially other Aboriginal people or indigenous people, see something in me, and they're the ones who really want to know the history. They get involved in wanting to know uh, you know, what nation am I from? Who are my people? And those are the ones that very respectfully, you know, I just say, you know, I give them the whole story of I I chances are I am, but I don't want to take away from uh the respect you've earned, you know, the respect you deserve by by pretending or or or improperly saying that I am.

Kerri 44:49

Right.

Bob 44:49

So I gotta leave it at that. And and they're very thankful, you know, with my my very open and honest approach to it. Um but they're they're firmly convinced. They they see something in me that maybe I don't even see in myself because they just they come right up to me and ask me, you know, especially seeing me as a paramedic. I I don't know um, you know, one of them is working as a paramedic. Um I don't know how else to describe it. There's that attraction there, and they're they're always very open and very friendly, um, very kind, which I appreciate and love talking. Um as you can tell, I talk too much. Not at all.

Kerri 45:31

So so the good thing is is that core shamanism brought pieces in for you that were not able to be explored within your family lineage, discussed within your family lineage, that had just been shut down by all the circumstances and things that happened. And you were able to then really utilize core shamanism to build your independent spiritual practice and over time, because you're always learning with this work, this is there's not a stopping point that you'll be building out those connections and building that community spiritually as time goes on.

Bob 46:09

Very much so. Very much so.

Kerri 46:13

So how do you approach questions about appropriation and even appreciation when you're teaching students whether they have uh First Nations ancestry or or not? Um, but maybe asking questions about that. How do you feel that when people are talking about court shamanism specifically?

Bob 46:34

Well, obviously, you know, it can be a very sensitive topic. Um it's understanding who what uh what the person wants. Some people are just looking for a tacit approval of uh, you know, a quick yes or no that we don't uh appropriate um to check that box to to asage their guilt or something, or just to check in and make sure we're not taking from from other people. Um and that's fine. Um as long as what I'm interested in is that people are are open and willing to talk about it. Um and if all you want is uh no-core shamanism is a universal, near-universal method of teaching shamanic uh methods, that every shaman worldwide does, you know, uh a journey, uh uh way of powering themselves up, you know, and so we're not taking from any one specific culture or any specific culture. Um the interesting ones, yeah, talking, you know, if you're talking to an indigenous person or uh uh somebody who wants more uh information on it. And again, you know, as long as they're open-minded and we have a back and forth discussion, it it becomes, you know, explaining back again, you know, what core shamanism is that we don't take from any specific uh person. Um that we're very respectful of that. And you know, we can even get into the you know the foundations uh study uh and preservation of knowledge of indigenous people that were were an ally to them in recording their traditions. Um I mean some want to go the next, you know, while you know you're the the plastic shaman or the neo-shaman seems to be the catchphrases nowadays. Um and we're not, we're honoring the the the the oh gosh, what keepers of the knowledge, yeah. 30, 40,000, 50,000 years of of of shamanic that shaman were global. Uh, you know, what we would call Europe now, you know, Asia, uh every continent of the earth had had shaman. So we're not shamanic healing is is is about direct connection with spirit, not about cultural uh ways. Um I mean that's that's adding the flavor to it of of you know a specific tribe or specific peoples having their own ways or their own words, uh seasoning, but at the core of it is are you having a direct connection with spirit? Are you bringing back healing for for people for the world? You know, do your methods work? That's that's the core of shamanism. Um and you know, sometimes you even gotta go as far as, you know, well, would uh would a a Cree shaman be appropriating from a Peruvian shaman? And they're like, well, of course not. And it's like, well, why is that not cultural appropriation? And you know, they're kind of like, oh, now I kind of understand that they're both healers, just they have their own cultural ways of doing it, you know, specific to them. That's right.

Kerri 50:16

And that medicine is their medicine, right? Yeah, taking from someone else's medicine and making it your own would potentially not have the power.

Bob 50:26

Yeah. And I mean, as much as I understand, shaman are very, very interested in other shaman, uh, you know, different cultures of how uh how they work, you know. But again, the the commonalities of oh, that's how you journey. I journey too, you know, that's how you shift consciousness, you know. You use a drum, I use my sticks, you know, like it's the uh we all support each other, not steal from each other. And again, it's really about having that open-minded conversation with them of I'm not preaching to them, I'm not uh stating what what's fact, I'm just allowing them, bringing the information to them. And you know, if they're willing and open-minded enough to to listen, then you can have a true dialogue about it.

Addressing Fears in Psychopomp Work

Kerri 51:14

Absolutely. So I'd like to ask a question about how you describe psychopath to those who are maybe fearful of middle world spirits, you know, from their religious exposure, from maybe exposure to magic, or they've been, you know, sort of told something that has made them fearful about working in the middle world. What would you say to a student who's learned a little bit to be scared versus what happens in psychopom? How would you answer that question?

Bob 51:51

It actually does. I mean, I've had a few students that, you know, this very issue, um, you know, oh, I want to take your next workshop, but yeah, I don't want to do that. I really think it starts um in the basic, the the way of the shaman workshop of how do you I mean, because we do talk about middle world, uh, the ordinary and the non-ordinary component of it. Um, and nothing against Glenn, but I think it was it was of that time of you know, oh, you have to be careful in middle world, you have to be protected, you have to have a helping spirit with you. Of um, we've kind of gotten away from that, thankfully, that you are powerful, you are well protected. Um, anyways, I mean, my thought is it starts with that of don't don't start or or hint at um because there's nothing to be afraid of in middle world, so why would you even bring that up as a as a thing? Um but now the other aspect is yeah, the I don't know, the Hollywood influence or the the again reading fairy tales, you know, evil spirits. It can even be a religious background, which is fair. Um where you know, wherever their knowledge has come from or wherever these fears have come from is explaining to them, you know, like in the basic, you've met with helping spirits, you have a power animal. Um, you are connected to power, you are well protected. Not only that, uh, as a teacher, as as instructor, you have the power of the circle that we've opened up, the helping spirits that we've called in. My power animals are here. Uh, you have layer and layer and layer of protection. Um beyond that, I mean, journeying in middle world, like all our workshops, it's the step-by-step uh, I mean, starting with knowledge, but then you know, step-by-step practical experience of uh uh firsthand being there, knowing middle world is a safe place to journey. Yes, there's certain cautions or things to not get yourself entwined with. Um but that's that's life. You don't stick your nose into where things where you don't belong sometimes, you know. There might be a spirit, uh an ethnocentric spirit, and just they're not gonna bother you. Just just don't don't go don't go poke in the bear. You know, your work is over here. Um so I mean a bit of a sense of humor too helps them, but just really uh focusing on your well-protected. You have your own power, your own protection. You have the circle's protection, my protection, my helping spirits. I mean, we're all in this together.

Kerri 54:51

And you've worked to build power during the class as well, as you're starting to have those initiations and learning those techniques. You've worked to build power as well. So step by step, growing up.

Bob 55:05

Yeah, and uh we use the word power law, but you know, in the other sense of it's empowering or or or filling that that student with knowledge and empowering them to they might still have some fear, but they're confident enough to to to go and and directly confront it and go, oh, this isn't a fearful place. This is a healing place as well. Um, it's not something, you know, uh the the the exorcist movie, you know, seems to come up a lot, you know, that Hollywood influence of of demons and things like that. And you're you're like, no, that that's go journey, and you'll see it's a beautiful place as well. Absolutely. There is suffering beings there, and this is where shaman are being called to help. So again, it's it's are they willing to listen or or are they set that no way uh uh I'm not going there. And uh so you just explain, you know, maybe right now this work isn't for you. Um, but you know, if you're interested in the workshop, please come. You know, uh we we can help you. It's a beautiful place. Um, but if you're in a place of of fear and you're thinking it's not for you, that's fair too. You know, maybe revisit in the future. Um other healing work, uh it's probably something you're better suited for. You know, and that that's fine too. We all have our place, like you know, you were saying earlier, whether it's uh you know, some people uh work with animal spirits, some people, you know, we all have kind of have our own area that we we enjoy focusing on. Um I met uh in the two-week program, there was one, oh my gosh, she was so sharp. But plants, she could she was so good with plants, talking with plants, finding plants, what they did, how they helped. Um and I mean she not not that she was fearful, just was not interested in doing the dying and beyond work. Plants were her calling, and she was she was wonderful at it. So why would you not, you know, uh specialize or focus your attention on that? Um and and I you know celebrate our differences. We all come together in a community with our different strengths.

Transformative Experiences in Shamanic Workshops

Kerri 57:30

That's right. Absolutely. So as we're wrapping up here, Bob, any stories that you would like to share from the three-year or two-week or other workshops that really were rather miraculous for you, really shifted things for you in a way, you know, kind of like your your experience with um you know, your your very, very grounding and powerful experience with Glenn as an instructor or your your very first um sponsor. You know, you've had some really powerful, influencing people in your life that have assisted you. But anything from like the three-year or two-week that really helped you.

Bob 58:15

They're both uh the two-week was uh was a huge step for me. Um some wonderful uh experiences there. Uh the three-year program though is is the the memory, the geez, I still feel like I'm there sometimes. Um there's an exercise in the three-year, and I and I I promise I won't give it away, uh, because we want, you know, obviously we're we're taught we want you to have the same experience. I was able to have uh that process of discovery on your own. Um let me just say there's there's an exercise you do. Um I was merged and I was sharing my experience out loud at the time. Um the building room, it's it's it's big. I mean, it's a big class. Um but as I merged with this helping spirit, I mean I thought I knew how to merge, you know. I I got this down, you know, I got some good merges. Uh my helping spirits, you know, working well with me in that. This was completely next level. I finally, I guess, understood or improved my ability to merge. I don't know how you would describe it, but this one just next level. Um sharing my story and the building, uh first the roof went, uh, and I'm under the stars, and I can see um we're in the desert of the high desert of Arizona, New Mexico, uh, the Grand Canyon kind of area. Absolutely beautiful. But I'm um I mean you're merged, so I mean you're still aware. Uh but I'm having this experience, and then the building disappears, and it's still me talking to the class, but we're all out in the desert uh under the night sky, this beautiful, beautiful night sky. But I have the awareness that I can hear my voice talking, continuing to tell the story, but I also became now part of the audience of listening, me helping Spirit tell the story. Looking at this beautiful landscape, um you know, and that small part of your brain going, What is going on here? You know, it was so beautiful, it wasn't fearful at all. There was no anxiety, it was just this beautiful moment. But to be both involved in it and have that ability to uh watch as a as a as a an observer at the same time was absolutely mind-blowing. But still, where did the building go? How did we all get to the desert? Um, anyways, we're done. I mean, you disengage from you merge, you ground yourself, which in this case was quite a lengthy process because A, I didn't want to let go. You know, it was just such this overwhelming experience. Um, and then as it turns out, we had a bit of a break after it was was my my turn there. Um nobody was talking to me outside, and I'm like, you know, I don't know, my insecurity. Did I do something wrong? Did I say something wrong? Did I nobody was talking to me because they didn't know what happened because they had this this magical, I shouldn't say magical. Um, they had the same experience of me if they were all transported into this this landscape. Um so nobody knew what to say. Nobody knew. Because, you know, again, that that that little bit of you're open-minded and and you know this work works, but there's still that logical brain that that gets in there and goes, what was did I just see that? Did I just experience that? And you're like, oh no, I didn't drink enough water today, I must be overtired. You know, you're looking for something to logically grasp onto, and like, no, we all had this united together, we had this wonderful spiritual experience that we shared in. And um everyone was in awe. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's funny um learning to accept and when you go through these processes or these these experiences of because I'll be honest, it it's taken me years to to fully, I don't even know if I'm there yet, but to process it, to accept it of um, you know, what was that? Uh well yeah, uh stop trying to use logic because there's no explanation logically, uh, nor should there be. Um, you know, to find words for it is is tough. You know, how do you describe that experience? The and and oh my gosh, the depth of emotion and and power. Um I I don't know what percentage you'd call like that merge, but like I say it was that that next level of uh again, part of the beauty of this work, right? Of you think you know or you think you're aware, or you think you're at a certain level, and they're like, oh no, no, no, we're taking the next level, we're giving you that next layer, and you're like, what? I thought I was I got this down, you know. So, yeah, that was a moment too, as beautiful as it was. I was like, oh, I gotta up my game. I gotta, there's so much more to to to understand about this work.

Kerri 1:03:58

That is so true. You just when you think that you understand what it feels like to receive a soul retrieval, for example, and then you have one that comes with more power than you've ever, you really feel like you've ever encountered at the time of a soul retrieval. And you're like, oh, this is the level of possibility. And then you're like, probably it's even more beyond that. You know, as you grow and as you're building your skills and capacity to hold more power, building those relationships with a compassion helping the spirit so that more power can be passed to support that healing outcome. So beautiful. Well, to wrap up, thank you so much, Bob, for joining us. Bob, you know, we're so glad that you teach in Windsor, Ontario, right across the river from Detroit and the border and all of that. Which isn't that hard. Um there done that. So we'll be in touch. But thanks so much for joining us today, Bob.

Bob 1:05:03

Thank you, Kerri. I really appreciate being here and spending time with you and getting to share my stories. So I apologize if I rambled on, but uh, as you can tell, I or hope you can tell, I'm very passionate about this work and um would love to share it with others. So, you know, please come and join us. Experience it for yourself.

Kerri 1:05:22

And I know firsthand you do phenomenal work.

Bob 1:05:25

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Take care. You too. Thanks.