Timothy Cope - The Way of the Shaman®

In this engaging conversation, Timothy Cope shares his journey into shamanism, detailing how he was drawn to the practice through a transformative experience with a book. He discusses the importance of community, the impact of workshops, and how shamanism has influenced his career in the arts. Timothy also explores unique experiences such as firewalking, the integration of tarot with shamanic practices, and his childhood experiences in a haunted house. He emphasizes the significance of teaching and the challenges faced by instructors, particularly in The Way of the Shaman workshop. The conversation culminates in a discussion about life after death and the profound insights gained through shamanic practices.

Guest: Timothy Cope, MFA, CSC
Bio: https://www.shamanism.org/faculty/timothy-cope/
Website: https://rattledrum.com/

Host: Kerri Husman, MD
Bio: https://www.shamanism.org/faculty/kerri-husman/
Website: https://www.mammothhills.com/services/courses-in-core-shamanism/

Workshop: The Way of the Shaman®
https://www.shamanism.org/workshops/the-way-of-the-shaman/

Learn more about shamanism and shamanic workshops by visiting the website of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies: https://www.shamanism.org

Transcript

The Journey Begins: How Shamanism Found Timothy

Speaker 0:07

You are listening to the Way of the Shaman Podcast with your host, Kerri Husman. The content shared in the Way of the Shaman Podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional or therapeutic advice. The views expressed by the host and interviewees reflect their personal experiences and opinions. Please consult with an appropriate licensed professional if you have any medical, psychological, or legal concerns.

Kerri 0:39

Hello, and welcome to the Way of the Shaman podcast. My name is Kerri Husman, and today you get to learn more about Timothy Cope, one of our faculty members from Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA. What we'll be going over today is how shamanism found Timothy, which is a wonderful story, as well as how he's incorporated shamanism in his life. And we're going to learn a lot more about how to be best prepared to attend the Way of the Shaman Workshop and how you can support yourself after the workshop as well. So without further ado, welcome Timothy Cope.

Timothy 1:21

Thank you, Kerri, and it's it's great to be here. I I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Kerri 1:27

So glad to have you. So I would like to learn more about how shamanism found you. And that was way back, I think, in 1983, is that correct?

Timothy 1:38

In 1983. It might have been the very end of 1982, but my my first uh workshop, Way of the Shaman, with Michael, was in May of 1983. And so uh some months before that, uh the paperback version of uh Michael's book, The Way of the Shaman, had just been published. And um I think the the hardback version had been on my radar, but it didn't grab me for whatever reason. But I was in um uh one of the local independent bookstores here in Minneapolis, and the uh paperback version of Way the Shaman had had just been published, and so and there was a stack of them on the on the counter by the cash register. And so I uh was there to cash register to pay for whatever else I was buying, and I looked down and the top copy of the book, the top copy on the pile of the book leapt off the pile and jumped into my hands and shouted, read me. Now, now I now I understand that to an outside observer, I I probably picked up the book and was just like, oh. But but my my felt experience was really the book jumped into my hands and it and and issued that it that command, that imperative, read me. And I I said to the salesperson, like, oh I I guess I'll take this too. And um so I went home and started to read it and was completely blown out of the water by it. Really? Um well what people may not realize is that the book, Way of the Shaman, was the first how-to manual for for the lay reader, for the popul uh a popular audience. And um I had uh I had uh read uh you know Castonata's books back in uh back in the day when I was an undergraduate in the early 70s, uh late 60s, early 70s. And uh there were some other writers that were very popular back then. Um Lynn, I want to say Lynn Rogers, I can't remember, wrote wrote something called Jaguar Woman.

Kerri 4:29

Andrews.

Timothy 4:30

Lynn Andrews, thank you, thank you. Um Lynn Rogers, I think, is a a bear scientist here in Minnesota. So um but so, and you know, and these were wonderful, wonderful books, wonderful stories, but um there was no method methodology in them for the the everyday person. And in reading those books, uh I found myself feeling, well, I wish uh an elder would jump out from behind a cactus and and point to you and say, Come, my son, come, I have been waiting for you. Come, I will show you wonders. You know, and and this was a kind of an incohates wish on my part. Of course. Yeah, and of course, you know.

Kerri 5:30

So what were your next steps? You started reading, this was a how-to.

The Impact of Community and Workshops on Shamanic Practice

Timothy 5:34

Did you start and and there it was. Yeah. This is how you do it. Try this at home. You know, you you you don't need the elder from uh jumping out from behind the cactus. You don't need to uh travel to South America or or wherever, you know. So so I read the book, and um, as I think I may have said, I was blown out of the water by it. And I needed to like, okay, at that time uh Michael Harner was based in um uh Connecticut. I I believe he was still teaching at the new school uh in New York City, but he he lived in Connecticut, and I thought like, and it was the Institute of Shamanic Studies. And so I had this vision of like this ivy-covered brick building, you know. It was it was probably only his coffee table, you know, in his in his house. But like, how how do I get there to to to study with this man? Um uh you know, and I I think like, well, I'll just I guess I'll just show up at his doorstep and camp out on his doorstep. Um I had no money to do this at the time I um was living the life of a you know starving artist, semi-bohemian. And and like, well, I'm gonna have to move to Connecticut, you know, to work with this man. And as fate would have it, um a few months after I read the book, um I got a notice somehow that Michael was coming to Minneapolis to offer the workshop, the wedge. You know? Well, that was great. Um I had but I had no money at that time. I was living hand to mouth. I had no money um to pay for the workshop. And um and also I kept losing the information uh uh about the particulars of where and when and all of that. And the information kept coming back to me unsought, you know, like um like oh I you know, here here I got some some flyer in the mail or whatever and lost it. And like, oh wait, here here's an ad in the newspaper. Oh wait, and it this happened like set several times. And and I did kind of take that as kind of a sign, but I I still didn't have any uh I still didn't have any ready ready cash to to pay for the fee. And so um uh friends of mine at the time, you know, there was kind of a new age circle of people that I was hanging out with. And friends at the time said, well, why why don't you just do what we do? Just like you put out your intention. You know, just put out your intention, man. And uh and so no, and so I said, like, well, okay. And I said, universe, not any particular spirits. I wasn't really keyed into universe, if this is gonna happen, you make that make it happen. And I began to get all sorts of odd jobs. I said I was living hand to mouth, and so I was getting this job here, answering, answering phones there, um shoveling walks in the winter time over here. And and then saving that. And I finally uh contacted the man who was sponsoring the workshop and said, I I want to sign up for the workshop, but um but I don't have I don't have any money to right now. And he he didn't want to sign me up. And and I can appreciate that in retrospect. He didn't know who I was, and you know what kind of you know, and but I I said I said I'm serious about my intention, and um I will pay you at the time of the workshop. Uh and um if if I don't have the money and I show up, you certainly don't have to let me in, you know, but but I will have the money and I will show up. And and he agreed. Uh okay, and he he put me on the roster, and by the work time the workshop happened, um I had I had saved my dollars and my uh small change, my pennies. No one's going to be saving pennies anymore. But and and I literally, I literally put the cash you know in the palm of his hand when I showed up for the workshop. And uh and that was a life-changing event uh for me. Uh Michael was the first teacher, spiritual teacher, that I thought I could really work with.

Kerri 11:07

Um what do you mean by that, work with?

Timothy 11:10

Well, he he was very human. Um he was very, very funny. So he had a a kind of uh irreverent approach to his teaching. And what else to say is that like, oh, I and I trusted him.

Kerri 11:40

That's what I was wondering if that was the difference.

Timothy 11:42

Yeah, I mean but but I don't know how how uh you know formulated all of that was in my mind back then. And you know, this was over 40 years ago. And so, but it was just sort of like, yeah, I want to I I want to hang out more with this guy, I want to learn more from this guy. Uh and uh he he was a very expensive teacher. It wasn't it wasn't so much lecturing, it was about teaching a methodology that will empower you. And so I, you know, I wanted more of that.

Kerri 12:22

Yeah, that see one, do one, teach one almost. You know, so you're you're reinforcing right away, practicing right away, so you don't lose those that motor memory within your body of the steps of the process.

Timothy 12:35

So important. It was, and so um uh then over time, um I took another workshop and another workshop. Uh and there several months after that first workshop, I got uh I got word that there was a a group forming, you know, a drumming circle. That's great. And and this was back in the days when uh the foundation's work, uh uh Harner's work, was really the only game in town if you if you weren't indigenous, if you weren't if you didn't come from a native tradition. So there was a there was a huge sort of outpouring of interest. And uh in those in those early days, uh we would get 30 people at the drumming circle, you know, um from the local cities area, local. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh so that was that was uh that certainly helped, you know.

Kerri 13:44

So you had the so you had that good fortune of having a community from the get-go in your vicinity.

Timothy 13:51

And yes, and and and and we were all beginners together, too. Uh which which which made it which made it interesting.

Kerri 14:01

Um I can imagine.

Timothy 14:03

But but uh there wasn't anyone who was really like, you know, I'm I'm leading the master, yeah. Yeah. Like, what are we doing? But but there were a lot of us. And so there was that mutual excitement of um of um you know, this brave new world that we were discovering. So fantastic.

Kerri 14:27

So and you were able then to keep taking workshops and expand uh your experiences as the new workshops became available?

Timothy 14:37

And and and yes, and that that took several years because at this time there wasn't a set of it.

Kerri 14:44

Was there just one workshop when you started?

Timothy 14:46

Really, it was the way of the shaman. And pretty quickly Michael did um designate people in other parts of the country to teach the way of the shaman. Um but but there weren't any other more advanced workshops to take because they hadn't been developed yet. And so um so and and and this was um uh I think kind of a blessing, at least for me, was it it gave me plenty of time to assimilate, uh integrate the material. For sure.

Kerri 15:29

Practicing journeying, getting those together.

Timothy 15:32

And just and and I probably over the years, I don't know how many times I've taken the way of the shaman, but in those early days, um I probably took it maybe three times, um, partly because there wasn't much else out there to take. And then slowly the other workshops were added, and I don't remember what um what order those were added in.

Kerri 15:56

Yeah.

Timothy 15:56

Um but but it gave me a chance to practice the rudiments of this craft, you know. So great.

Kerri 16:09

Thank you for sharing that. And I'm really understanding the depth of how that building occurred way at the you know, way back at the beginning. So back when I was in junior high.

Timothy 16:21

Yeah, and I I was in my early 30s at that time. So uh this dates me too, but it was uh it was uh it was a tremendous personal experience, and it was also a tremendous communal experience to to be on this path together with other people here who were just discovering this.

Kerri 16:46

So let me ask a question about that. So over time, the foundation now has people offering journey circles or drum circles all around the globe. And do you feel that that is a really good way for people to get community, to practice, to continue to learn in between workshops? Do you think that's a good way to go?

Timothy 17:10

Oh, I I always encourage that. And I'm so pleased that overall it's that kind of thing is accessible to people. Even now in the um the Zoom uh world we live in, the Teams world we live in, um the riverside world we live in. Uh uh, you know, it if if geographically you're isolated, you can still find community and you can still find circles um through through the internet, you know, which was which was not available when when I started.

Kerri 17:51

Of course, yeah.

Timothy 17:52

So it is uh it's it's wonderful that if people are seeking community, they don't have to feel that like, oh well, I'm I'm here in the wilds of say northern Minnesota or the wilds of Canada uh and there's no one around. Um generally people can find community through the internet. Yeah. And I and I endorse that uh wholeheartedly.

Intertwining Careers: Shamanism and Playwriting

Kerri 18:21

Good. I I couldn't agree more. Um I do think um the the listings that we have are covered by states on the website, but that's something you know to think about is helping people know in person versus virtual so they can find more resources. So good point. Thank you for that. So I do want to go back to your career path and ask a little bit about how shamanism has influenced that. So you have a master's in fine art in playwriting, which is, I mean, kind of a fantastic and interesting career path to begin with, writing educational scripts. And so I would like to know how because you were still working in that capacity while you were becoming um experienced as a shamanic practitioner, how did those intertwine and what was that like for you?

Timothy 19:15

Well, um uh after I after I received my my master's, it was like, well, now what do I do now? I I wasn't I wasn't specifically being trained in writing educational scripts. I'm I'm a theater geek. Theater was my first love, um uh which probably informs my teaching and my inner interview responses. And so um uh uh at one point I got uh you know I got a job uh through my theater work locally here in Minneapolis. Uh I I got a job uh working for the theater department of the um Science Museum of Minnesota, uh which which had its own uh department, creating uh uh educational live theater programs that would be performed right in the museum. And um uh I don't know how specifically shamanic this is, but uh I had been working with uh uh the deaf community, the sign language community here in Minneapolis doing sign language theater. And the and the um director of the sign language theater had moved on and had become the head of the theater department at the Science Museum. And um uh one day she called me uh and uh said, Tim, I I've got this new job and I want you to write scripts for us.

Kerri 21:05

Oh.

Timothy 21:06

And that was exciting, and I said um I said to Tessa, uh um uh well uh great, I'm excited, I'm excited, but I'm just about ready to leave for um however many weeks uh in Mexico, this is during the winter, uh, in Mexico, to um, among other things, visit the Senotes in the Yucatan. And uh I don't suppose that the Science Museum is doing any exhibits on the Stinotes, are they? There's this long silence. Tessa says, um, well, yes, as a as a matter of fact, we are. And I said, Well, I guess I know which scripts I'll be writing. And she said, Yes, I guess we do. So I don't know how sh strictly shamanic that was, but um that was um uh uh an amazing synchronicity.

Kerri 22:10

Yes.

Timothy 22:11

Yeah and and so I and I I wrote a couple of scripts about different aspects of the history and uh uh the cenote. And the thing I loved about the Science Museum is that um I I like to say it was the best job job I ever had because for one thing, um uh there's always something fascinating and new to learn there. Right. And I I was pretty much just getting into shamanism, but I found myself wanting to just work without making a big deal about it, some spiritual or shamanic aspect into the scripts that I was writing. And and uh at that time the people at the museum on staff, the the experts, the anthropologists, and even some of the hard science experts were completely cool with that. You know, I called it I called it I was doing stealth shamanism, but but I wasn't I wasn't fooling anybody there.

Kerri 23:16

Yeah.

Timothy 23:17

But but but um uh when I could uh talk about a little ritual or some traditional little piece of magic that people practiced in relevant to whatever the topic was that I was writing about, I could kind of work that in. And you know generally the people at the museum would say, yes, that's that's part of what was going on, or that's part of what this is about. This is what people do, or what they did a couple of hundred years ago, you know, that kind of thing. So they they were really um accepting of my interest.

Kerri 23:56

Oh that's great. So that's that's a wonderful way to show appreciation, you know, keeping those traditions known, alive, and and even in the way they were being um presented there at the museum.

Timothy 24:11

Yes, so so in and these were very small ways, but it's like, all right, if if in this small way I can uh help the the the public, uh the visiting public at the museum, who really knows nothing about any of this. Not that I knew much more at that time. Um but but well they g get used to hearing about it.

Kerri 24:33

Right.

Timothy 24:34

You know?

Kerri 24:34

Absolutely.

Timothy 24:36

Yeah.

Kerri 24:37

So shifting gears a little bit.

Timothy 24:39

You have it, I'll go off.

Kerri 24:43

I want to ask a little bit about something that I don't know that someone could pay me enough to do. Sort of like jumping out of airplanes, not my thing. Never going to do that.

Timothy 24:53

I'm with you there.

Kerri 24:55

But you have extensive experience firewalking and even teaching others to do it. Now, what I'm curious about is did firewalking occur before, after your experience with shamanism showing up in your hand at the bookstore? And does shamanism inform firewalking in some way? I'm very curious.

Timothy 25:20

Well, okay, so to to try to answer those questions more or less in order. Um I had been walking and exploring the shamanic path for um many years before uh firewalking came into my field.

Kerri 25:37

Okay.

Timothy 25:38

And and actually um uh I I met uh the first uh uh members of of what would became my firewalking community at at some shamanic trainings.

Kerri 25:54

Oh, I see.

Timothy 25:55

And yeah, uh foundation shamanic trainings. And I um I I got uh at that time I was getting really workshopped out. You know, you you you can get excuse me, you can get workshop fatigue. And and I was at a place of um, you know, I think I'm done taking workshops for a while. And a number of people who are at um this particular this particular training that I was a part of were going to go on and do firewalking. There, there was one friend who had had been been doing it for some years. And so there are you know, three or four or five people that were were in this shamanic training who are gonna go on and and be initiated in firewalking. And it was just sort of like I found myself saying, like, well, I don't want to do any more workshops, but I don't want to be left out. And so um I sort of took a deep breath and uh, you know, count me in, you know, let me on the bus. Uh and um so uh I really didn't know what I was getting into. I mean, I I I didn't really think about it uh uh until I was like on the plane to go out to California where the training was going to be. And then it was sort of like, oh my God, what have I signed up for? Um and but firewalking, which is which which was also in in this way a transforming experience for me.

Kerri 27:48

Oh, I can imagine.

Timothy 27:49

Yeah. Um uh uh but firewalking traditionally uh and it's and it's done in different permutations, different forms all over the world, but traditionally um it has a strong spiritual component. Okay. Uh now in in here in in the West, in our in our modern society, it doesn't need to have that. I see that. And sometimes doesn't. Now the training that I got um while it was um sort of um interdominational had had that spiritual component.

Kerri 28:33

Got it.

Timothy 28:33

Okay. Um but you you can find uh people training it where it it's been reduced to kind of mind over matter. I see. And that that may or may not be helpful to the people that do that. Um when when I have participated and and the times when I've I've led I've led firewalks, I certainly try to incorporate the spiritual component and in the firewalks that I have led, um, you know, I invite in the spirits and uh encourage other people to invite in their helping spirits. And if they um if perhaps they're not on the shamanic path or not in touch with their helping spirits, I say, well then, you know, in you know, whoever you pray to when you pray or whatever. I mean the uh the spirits aren't in my experience are not jealous about that. You know. If if if you are sincere and if you have goodwill, uh the sp the spirits will offer their help, even if you don't know their names.

Kerri 29:47

And do you think that those the spirits helped you be able to acquire the skills to firewalk fairly quickly?

Experiences With Firewalking

Timothy 29:55

Um it's sort of like in the particular training that I was at, it's sort of like being f thrown into the to the deep end of the pool. And you know, I I was going to an initiation training that was a week long, and I thought like, well, all right, we'll we'll do this and we'll do that, and baby steps, and then at the end, you know, then we'll do the firewalk, you know, and we'll graduate. And no, the very the very first night we had, you know, we we had one day to put our stuff, you know, in the in the dorms, and then you know, and the very next day at the end of the night, you know, we were firewalking. So um it it it isn't that you have to have years and years of training. What it what it is, it's it's about um getting in touch with with your spiritual connection. Okay. And um so uh you you you just and and there's no expectation, I guess, again, in my in the training that I experience, you need to know when the time is right for you.

Kerri 31:12

Sure.

Timothy 31:13

So so there are people who um have been firewalking for years and they're there in front of the coals, and they will go, like, not today, not tonight. And then other people who and I'm with you, like, no way you could pay me enough to jump out of an airplane. But there are people who will come to watch but think like, no way you're gonna get me to walk over those coals. And there's th in in in what I've experienced, there's it's always the person's decision. And and uh there's not that pressure, like, oh, I have to do this to be macho or right, right.

Kerri 31:54

It's not about that.

Timothy 31:55

It's not about that. And these people who would never have dreamed that they would do it will will find themselves moving across the cool and not being burned.

Kerri 32:04

Yeah.

Timothy 32:05

Beautiful. Beautiful.

Kerri 32:06

Thank you.

Timothy 32:08

Yeah, so but so anyway, uh, you know, not to continue on that, but but you you if you if you bring your shamanic experience or or your other spiritual experience to it, that's fine. But but you can find firewaps where it's just all about mind over matter and if that works for you, that's fine too. So yeah.

From Tarot Reading to Shamanism

Kerri 32:29

So another thing that you used to do that I'm so interested in is you were a tarot card reader professionally. I mean, this was a real gig for you. Yeah. My question is if someone is learning shamanism and they also read cards, for example, what how could shamanism possibly help them to better glean information from a draw or to understand if someone has drawn for them and done a reading for them, how could shamanism add understanding depth to the experience?

Timothy 33:09

Um well, once again, uh when I was most active as a card reader was um before I really seriously stepped onto the shamanic path. And there's probably was some overlap there, but um as I became more and more immersed in shamanism, my um Tarot reading receded into the background. Sure. Um but but to respond to your question, um you know, I can see, and I'm not saying that I did this very often, but if you're learning about the cards, well what what's the message of this card, or how does this card in in relationship to this card, what what is the synthesis of that? And I can see that a person who knows how to journey could could journey. Absolutely. Could journey to the hermit, could could uh journey to um the lovers, uh what whoever. And and the fool, of course, is the big one. Um but um and and and uh ask to be taught by the spirit that is represented by that card or those cards. And I can see where that I can see where that would be a very fruitful um way to integrate uh the two paths of the Tureau, which I'm still very fond of, and um and shamanism.

Kerri 34:49

And of course, you could simply, if you've just developed a new relationship with uh with a teacher or with a uh power animal or animal spirit, if you've just taken the way of the shaman, you just had that first power animal retrieval, this would be a great question to ask. You've had a draw and you can ask, what do I need more what do I need to learn from this? What more is there for me? Show me some clarity. What what did this card mean? And you can just really build that.

Timothy 35:17

And you can and and you could and you could uh ask one of your shamanic helping spirits, platypus, for example, if platypus was your power animal to show you. Yeah, yeah. I like that, I like that idea. I I can't say that that I I have ever actually done that. I've full full disclosure here, but uh it it's another application of uh of shamanism in a it in perhaps a person's everyday life that could be very, very helpful. That's right. Yeah.

Growing Up in a Haunted House

Kerri 35:47

So shifting again, um, one of the things that I I learned about you is that you grew up in a haunted house. Um can you tell me a little bit about how that affected you? And did that at all make you uh scared or fearful to learn more about shamanism if that was bothersome for you? Or was it kind of fun, like this this spirit you communicated with? How did that work out?

Timothy 36:16

Well, um I was very, very young when the uh poltergeist phenomenon uh was going on in the house that I ultimately grew up in. We we um my family moved into that house when I was not quite three. Okay. Probably when I was like two and a half. I remember my third birthday, so that's how I know that. Um and um uh it was very spooky at the time.

Kerri 36:47

Okay.

Timothy 36:48

I was only two and a half, three, maybe going on four. The the phenomena itself was, as I said, was poltergeist phenomena, like uh unexplained footsteps, you know, the ceiling overhead, or coming down the stairs, or uh rapping on windows, um uh and then people people going outside and not finding any footsteps in the in the snow. There would be like uh new fallen snow on the ground, like I don't know who made that those noises. We ascribed this to the man who had um lived in the house before we bought the house. And we bought the house from his widow.

Kerri 37:38

I see.

Timothy 37:39

So we called we called him Hiram, that was his name. Uh and after four or five years, uh, the this phenomenon, which wasn't happening all the time, but um it it became quiescent.

Kerri 37:58

Okay.

Timothy 37:58

And and and so uh as far as we could figure, um the spirit, whoever it was, but Hiram, had either gotten used to us or um it had finally moved on. And if you if you're taking, I think it's in um shamanism dying and beyond, uh, to step outside our wave the shaman envelope a little bit. Um I think there there's uh a a little a segment on haunted houses and ghosts and poltergeist. And and it talks about there, like often, again, they're not malevolent. You know, we we we tend to project onto that which is unknown, can't be explained, that it's malevolent. And often the spirits are not malevolent. In the case of poltergeist, often all they want is to be acknowledged. Attention. And that seems to be what happened in this case.

Kerri 39:01

Okay.

Timothy 39:02

That that um that we we would talk we talk about Hiram, or like, oh, I wonder how Hiram's doing, or haven't heard from him for a while. And that that that finally the phenomena kind of faded away. That and I uh uh my mother lived in that house until the day uh until the day she died, and uh we never felt, and of course this time we were unaware of uh my parents certainly were not aware of shamanism or anything like that. And uh and uh and as a youth and a young person I wasn't. But so it's never like I felt um Hiram needed to be psychopomped.

Kerri 39:48

Sure, sure. That was gonna be my question, yeah.

Timothy 39:50

Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's like uh if he's here, he's cool, or he's moved on on his own, you know. So yeah.

Kerri 40:03

And did that cause did you have any concerns uh grow you know, as you were growing in your shamanic practice, as far as was that going to be drawing the attention of middle world spirits that needed help, or would you be noticing more phenomena like that?

Timothy 40:25

I personally was not. Okay. Um I uh I I have always once I started to um build a relationship with my helping spirits and my power animals, I I just turned that over to them. Yeah. That's that's their job. And so um, but yeah, no, I know that there are other people who have have different experiences. I admit that I feel the pressure, and I still feel the pressure, when uh uh when a a client or a prospective client seeks me out and says, I I want help with such and such, or there's a presence here that I that uh I'm scared of or that I need need help with. It's impacting me. Um and that's not even that though that I'm afraid of that potential spirit. It's more like the pressure I feel like, oh, I I hope I'm be able to be helpful to this person, you know? Yeah. Uh and I and I and I and I I feel that ego pressure. When I when I completely surrender it to the spirits, spirits, I'm just the the vehicle, the hollow bone. Help me be helpful, and but you do the work, um that then the pressure is off. But I'm I'm human, and so sometimes I have that ego pressure. You know, I know. You want me to do what? Yeah. We're all human.

Kerri 42:08

We are all human. Just trying to clear as much of that out to help that the power flow.

Timothy 42:15

Yeah.

Teaching the Way of the Shaman

Kerri 42:16

So one of the things I wanted to ask you about with regard to the way of the shaman class is that many instructors that I've talked to really feel that the way of the shaman is their favorite class to teach, but also one of the hardest classes to teach. Do you agree with either of those sentiments?

Overcoming Doubts in Shamanic Journeying

Timothy 42:37

Excuse me, again, a little bit of my water went down the wrong pipe. Um again, I'm just speaking personally here, but I think that I would agree with um both of those in that um it's my favorite um class to teach because it's so well thought out, it's so well put together. The takeaway is um uh for the student is that you you have an array of um shamanic techniques that that if they choose, they can put into practice immediately. This is why this is why the book was so empowering. Try this at home. The workshop is like, okay, now you guys do this on your own and and find out what works for you. If if if if it if it doesn't work quite the way that it was presented in the workshop, well then ask your spirits how to tweak it so that it works for you. So that's tremendously empowering, and uh there's the potential there for the student to leave the workshop very well equipped to continue their journey. You know, there's all there's always more to learn. And most people want to learn more. But man, you've got your starter set and have at it. I think where the the difficulty comes for me when it's hard is when people are trying to journey for the first time. They may be running into conflict too from their own spiritual uh upbringing, which Shravanism can be at odds with. So they're struggling with that. And you can't just say, like, oh, well, just let that go. And you can't do that. Those struggles are are real and and and have uh magnitude, gravitas. So um so it's a challenge to help people um either um to overcome those kinds of resistances or uh internalized messages. And then sometimes people just have a hard time uh opening up to the journey process itself. Um how how do I know that I'm not making it up? It's a question that we all that we all face even.

Kerri 45:32

So how do you feel that? How do you feel that question? How do I know that I'm not making this up?

Timothy 45:38

Um the way I feel it, uh, and again, you know, I'm just speaking for myself, but um uh I don't know what this is going to sound like, but I say like, go ahead and make it up. Uh fake it until you make it. And and where where that comes from, I'm not I'm not just being flip. I know. But but the um the spirits are hugely uh compassionate. And they they work with the materials that they are given. And so just because a person is not uh relaxed enough to enter into uh the journey experience as it's presented, because they're afraid they're making up, how do I know it's real? Um the spirits will use that. They will. They'll use that, and and that's why I say, well, just see what you come up with, all right? And and and and and then ask yourself if that's useful. Is that helpful? The other thing, the other thing that uh has happened with me and um happened, and I've seen it happen with other people, is that um it will seem to be very cerebral. I'm just making this up. I knew I knew that this is what would happen, I'm just making this up, I'm just making this up. You know, drum is going boom boom, I'm just making this up. And then all of a sudden, something will happen that you did not expect. I I did not make that up. There's a spontaneity there, and and uh and uh that that can be one way that people get uh uh uh unlocked. Yeah. Um may may I tell you a story here? We take the time. Please nervous about taking too much time telling stuff, but um my first workshop with Michael. I was going nowhere. It was a two-day workshop. And in those days, we only went to the lower world, we didn't go to the upper world. But it was a two-day workshop, any number of um any number of journeys, I was going nowhere. Um the drum, Michael would be drumming, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, they weren't super long journeys, you know, ten minutes maybe at the most. But you know, people would come back with, you know, all what is it, seven volumes of Harry Potter, and you know, Harry Potter hadn't been written yet, you know, or War and Peace or whatever. I was going nowhere. And I was getting really, really frustrated. I was getting really angry with myself. You know, I was putting it on me. It I it was pretty upset.

Kerri 49:13

Yeah.

Timothy 49:14

Pretty upset. Two days of this. So finally, at the um the end of the of the second day, uh Michael says, Well, we have time for one last journey. Ask the spirits, or your your power animal, this time we were just working with the power animal, ask your power animal a question, whatever, whatever you want to ask. You you decide. And so my question to my animal, I did have an animal because uh one of my partners had brought me an animal. Okay. So so I said to my animal, my question was, um, you know, should I even be doing this? I know we're not supposed to ask shit questions, but but is it right for me to be doing this, you know? And so the drum began. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I wasn't going anywhere. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I'm running out of time. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. This is my very last chance. Boom, boom. The drums are gonna stop. And so I finally said, All right, spirits, if this is gonna happen, you've got to do it. You've gotta do it. And as soon as I made that request, yeah, it really was. So it's like, beat me down with Scotty, you know. I, you know, there was no tunnel. I could still blasphemy when I'm saying that. Yeah, there's no tunnel. And there was my power animal in front of me. It's sort of like they're like, well, well, it took you long enough, you know. And so, and so I so I asked the question, you know, which is part of the methodology, method uh methodology. Should should I be uh should I be doing this? Is this okay for me? You know? And my power animal goes. And of course I said, like, yeah, I said, you're just saying that because I want you to say that, and you're nothing more than a figment of my imagination. At which point my power animal reared up on its on its forepaws and had its butt up in the air with its tail going up in the air, something that this animal would never do in ordinary reality. And I was I was shocked by that. And I said, You can't do that, at which point my power animal began to do backflips like a gym, like a gymnast, you know. At which point the drum stopped. And I started to go back up the tunnel the way I was supposed to, back up the tunnel. And and I, you know, and I was thinking like, I thought like, you know, oh, just like my power animal was doing what was supposed to be impossible, what he wasn't supposed to be able to do. Oh, it is all right for me to do this.

Kerri 52:43

Yeah.

The Importance of Trusting the Spirits

Timothy 52:44

Even though I think I can't, or whatever. And you know, it took me two days of getting frustrated. And um, after that, I found I could journey and was able to journey. So so that that initial experience was transformative. Oh, yeah. The breakthrough. The breakthrough. And for for better or for worse, um it set me on the path that has led me to this interview today. Um and and I often I often tell this story uh in the basic, you know, when people are having having trouble. And I I give I give them permission. I mean, they don't have to duplicate my experience, but I give them permission to to feel like they're making it up. That's okay. That that in itself is very human. You learn you learn to trust the helping spirits the way you learn to trust the people in your world. You know, over time. Yeah. The trust builds.

Kerri 53:56

Absolutely.

Timothy 53:57

You know, the you know, the people around you prove that they are there for you. And and so give the spirits a chance to prove that. And that and that can take time.

Kerri 54:10

But that is probably one of the most important things to learn, really, from the way of the shaman is you know, no one that's an instructor is going to say, you must accept today that the spirits are real. That's not how this works. And but as you have experiences that are synchronicities beyond capacity to expect, and and you've seen miracles happen, and you you you maybe you've witnessed miracles or you've experienced them yourself. You know, this initial workshop definitely gives you the opportunity to see what is possible, even if it is just the very tip of the iceberg.

Direct Revelation and Core Shamanism

Timothy 54:54

It it's it's just the tip of the iceberg. Um, but it also gives people uh often a different path if if their experience before has been very um constrictive or very repressive in some way. And and and sometimes it's very scary and very frightening for people to make those tentative steps then away from whatever um their experience has been. And that's one of the things that's very challenging for the teacher to deal with, you know, uh to both give them permission to take those steps away and to try to create a a space and uh a safe enough experience, a safe enough space so that they can begin to take the that exploration. They they don't have to do it all at once.

Kerri 56:00

No, no, and direct revelation. I mean, this you know, when you're doing divination, asking directly the helping spirits questions, many um religious systems are not designed for direct revelation to be a part of the system. And so as people are stepping away from their religious upbringing, but not necessarily throwing it out, right? You can be devout in whatever your faith is and still have the opportunity for direct revelation.

Timothy 56:32

Um core shamanism, uh in my understanding, um doesn't really have a quarrel with other spiritual paths. Um those other spiritual paths, some of which may be shamanic, um, may have a quarrel with core shamanism. Yeah, as you were saying, or you know, you're you're practicing demon this or you're in league with somebody over here. But core shamanism is pretty expansive. Uh there was one other little thing I wanted to say, but it's okay, it's gone now. Maybe it'll come back. But yeah. But along those lines. Yeah.

Kerri 57:22

And so could you uh share with us possibly you know, the these these core teachings. Learning how to do a divination with an object, with the rock, learning how to do go ahead.

Timothy 57:38

You you reminded me of it. I was going to mention the rock seeing. And um it's pretty um it's pretty vanilla, but but it's very, very powerful. And this is uh part of the genius of the basic is you know, that's the first divination technique that we teach in the way of the shaman. And it's very, very simple. Uh and it doesn't look like all that much maybe coming into it from the outside. But the answers that it that the method delivers can be profound. And and and it's a superb way to put your your toe in the water, especially if you have trepidation for whatever reason of stepping onto this path.

Kerri 58:38

And it's and it's a great first experience with discernment, you know, really being able to bring that all together with your grapefruit-sized rock, and you're just thinking, I'm just looking at this rock, but that's yeah, it's more than just that.

Timothy 58:54

And to begin to see um communications from the spirits that are manifesting in that rock. That's right. So, yeah.

Kerri 59:09

Beautiful. Now, I want to ask a real practical question, and I have a feeling that I might get different answers from different instructors.

Timothy 59:17

One would hope so.

Kerri 59:18

So, one of the questions that people will have is Do I need to buy a drum before I come to the basic? Do I need to buy rattles? Should I is it okay to borrow someone's? Should I paint them beforehand? Does it need to be a skin drum? Is a synthetic drum okay or is that disrespectful? So there's lots of questions like this about these accoutrements that are real critical tools, but you're just being exposed to the very first workshop, and that's already an expense to get there, to be there, to to pay for everything. What would you tell a student who's considering attending the Way of the Shaman about drums and rattles before they come to that class?

Timothy 1:00:05

Well, I believe, I believe on the foundation's uh website on the descriptions of the various workshops, but particularly the basic. Well, yeah, bring a drum or a rattle if you have one. If you have one. Um you you don't need those things to begin to step onto the path. People often want to have them, but they uh one doesn't need them. And and again, when we all started back in the day, you know, at my at my first workshop in 1983, the only person who had a drum was Michael Harner. The only person who had a rattle was Michael Harner. And um there's a there's a um uh in people improvise. Um the the the pill box or the tic-tac box. Uh yeah, I've got one here to show you. This is my uh this is my I I do profan bottle. No, but um it works. You know, it's fine. Uh it's fine. Um uh I was once um working with uh um a native friend getting ready for a um uh a sweat lodge that the uh uh uh that the we were doing in as part of the uh the foundation's work uh at Esselin. This was before the two-week residential, this is before the three-year program. And and so we I and and my friend Paponi, um who was a Kickapoo woman, um were gathering rocks to be heated in the in the fire. And um so uh we found we found a rock that seemed to seemed to be good, and and uh we asked if the rock wanted to come and got a yes. And then um, and I'd never seen this before, uh, Paponi took a little bit of her saliva and she offered it um to the rock, to the place where the rock was. And she said, she told me, I mean, this was a great teaching for me. She told me, well, in in our tradition, um we want to give a gift, we want to show our gratitude, so we want to give, you know, a little bit of tobacco or this or that to the material, the physical object, or that is going to help us do our work. And and we didn't we didn't have any tobacco. We we we we didn't bring anything with us when we climbed up into the hills and were finding these rocks. So she said, but what I can do is I can give a little bit of myself, you know. And and uh this was a great teaching for me to have the to have the sincere intention, to have the pure intention, and then use whatever materials you have to carry the work forward. And and and I I'm telling you this to take back to your question about no, you don't, you don't need you you need a drum. Oh, I'm gonna lose my I'm getting excited. I might knock the computer off the under the chair. You need the um, you need a drum. You know, I don't know who who would do that, but they could do that, you know. Or or you know, in some traditions, people chant to journey. They do the yoiking, use your voice. Um the the this the spirits will provide if you don't if you don't have the set thing.

Comparing Sonic Driving and Plant Medicine

Kerri 1:04:13

Well, that's that's that's what I was looking for. So thank you so much, Timothy. Um so another question I have is you live in a state where residents of the state, at least at this point in time, are allowed or it's decriminalized. I guess I'm not sure the law is. I don't I don't live in the in your state.

Timothy 1:04:33

They're changing too.

Kerri 1:04:35

That people can grow psilocybin mushrooms and cannabis for their own use in their own homes. And so there are likely students that you have in your classes who have had a variety of types of medicine journeys, different from journeying with sonic driving, which is exclusively how the foundation teaches people how to journey. So tell me what's different. And and if for those who have an expectation, I'm going to take the medicine and then things are going to happen, right? Versus I am the gas, I'm the brake, my imagination needs to start my process with the sonic driving. How do you help people who are coming to this from a medicine experience place to the sonic driving? How do you help them build their confidence that they can still do this?

Timothy 1:05:32

That's a great question. And and a lot of that depends on the individual. Because if a person has had a lot of experience with um psychedelics, psychotropics, botanicals, however you want to characterize it, um they can have uh they can have challenges. Journeying through a drum or a rattle, the sonic driving. And mostly where a lot of that comes from is because the quality of the experience is different. And if you are used to a particular kind of experience, the journeying with the drum or the rattle can seem in some ways shallow or not not as vivid. And so that can be a hurdle for people to get over. And what I usually say, and if people have other suggestions, I'm perfectly open to hearing those suggestions. But what I usually say is, well, you know, you need to give it a chance. This is just as valid a way. And it's a it's safe, there are no after-effects. People, well, I don't want to say that people don't have bad trips with sonic driving, but I might I might say that they are less acceptable to the because there's because there's uh there are your own internal safeguards which are often still in place. Uh if if things begin to go south, as it were, you can sort of like, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna zig here instead of just continuing to to zag. And people don't always have that um self-discipline if they're um using uh uh a psychotropic. Um and and so for that reason it's important to have uh people who are experienced and know what they're doing to help the person who has been taking the plant, the medicine, go through it, um, you know, need to be in a prepared environment, all of that stuff. Uh people can people can do the journeying uh on their own at home, usually fairly safely, you know. Um having having said that, um I don't consider you know core shamanism to be to be anti uh anti-traditional plant medicine.

Kerri 1:09:17

Right.

Timothy 1:09:18

And and more and more people have experience with traditional plant medicine now than 40 years ago when I stepped on to this path. But uh it's really up to the individual to be aware that that plant medicine or sonic driving uh the quality is different. The name when I mean quality, I don't mean that one is of a higher quality. The the texture, for want of a better word, is is the textures are different. Yeah.

Kerri 1:09:56

It's a different experience, and but it can be it can be as profound, as meaningful, as powerful of an initiation.

Timothy 1:10:05

Yeah.

Kerri 1:10:06

But but a fundamentally different experience.

Timothy 1:10:09

And and nowadays, you know, um one other thing to be aware of is traditionally, if you were looking for traditional plant medicine, it it took some doing to find it. You might have to go to a different country, you might da da da da, or even here, you know, there's a pilgrimage that used to be involved. Um nowadays that's not necessarily the case, and that and that means that those uh powerful medicines are more readily available, uh, but they may be then available in uh situations that aren't perhaps as well prepared, let's say.

Kerri 1:11:06

Yeah.

Timothy 1:11:09

Or the or the or the people who are administering them are perhaps not as experienced as perhaps, you know, they might be.

Kerri 1:11:20

Holding a safe scene or safe safe circle, you know, facilitators that are trained and certified.

Timothy 1:11:26

Yeah. So so there are the there are those things to be aware of. Absolutely.

Kerri 1:11:33

So I'm gonna shift a different way. I've got a couple more questions for you, Timothy. One of them is irritation. What well you you and you've been a phenomenal storyteller that I already knew you were.

Timothy 1:11:46

What do you feel is the best class to take after the way of the shaman and why um you warned me that I was gonna you were gonna ask that. So I've had sorry, people listening at home. This is not the but no, but I've given that particul some some thought. And for for myself, um I I would name, if I had to name one, I would name shamanism dying and beyond. Um of the things that shamanism has given me is um I am no longer afraid of being dead. Which is huge. It is huge. Now, having said that, how I am going to die is a slightly different question. How I might die. Um, you know, is there going to be blood? Is it going to be a long, drawn-out process? Is there going to be a lot of pain? And my body certainly has that body anxiety of facing death. Um so the idea of of how I might go through that portal physically. Um, you know, I have I have anxiety about that. But um years of journeying, working with the spirits, learning to trust the spirits, uh, realizing that existence continues, consciousness continues on the other side of physical life. Um that has meant that for myself, um, I don't think I'm afraid, that's why I say I'm not afraid of being dead.

Kerri 1:14:01

Yeah.

Timothy 1:14:02

It's kind and and and as I age uh I find myself uh more and more curious as to what uh what my personal journey will be, you know, uh on on the other side of this my life. And and I think that um shamanism dying and beyond um will will can help people um lose that fear that that almost all of us carry. Yeah. Yeah.

Kerri 1:14:47

And it brings such a powerful gift that you can give to those suffering beings knowing how to psychopomp.

Timothy 1:14:56

Or stuck.

Kerri 1:14:57

So many people, that is what they do. You know, they they don't hang out a shingle. I'm you know doing soul retrievals on Thursday, kind of thing. Instead, they are providing this silent behind the scenes community service to those middle world spirits by giving them an opportunity to move beyond their suffering.

Timothy 1:15:18

And and one is able to do that because, again, of their own uh experience uh walking between the worlds. And this this is the this isn't the only world we walk on. And uh shamanism dying and beyond can uh open that door for people. Yeah.

Kerri 1:15:41

Yeah. Well, thank you for that. Well, with that said, I think we are at the end of our interview today. I so appreciate your time that you've spent with us, the stories that you've shared, and I think we all know more about you and about your journey with shamanism as well as this wonderful workshop, The Way of the Shaman.

Timothy 1:16:04

Um thank thank you, Kerri. This has been a real pleasure. Thank you for uh inviting me to have this conversation. Uh and uh I I I yeah, it's a great workshop.

Kerri 1:16:20

Sign up for this. All right. Well, we'll see you next time. Bye bye.

Timothy 1:16:25

Thank you. Bye bye.