Catherine Hughes - Shamanism, Dying, and Beyond™

Join us as Catherine Hughes shares her transformative journey into core shamanism, its impact on her life, and the profound practices of shamanic healing and psychopomp work. Discover how this ancient wisdom fosters healing, personal growth, and respectful engagement with death and the spirit world.

Guest: Catherine Hughes, BFA, BEd
Guest's bio: https://www.shamanism.org/faculty/catherine-hughes/

Host: Kerri Husman, MD
Bio: https://www.shamanism.org/faculty/kerri-husman/
Website: https://www.mammothhills.com/services/courses-in-core-shamanism/

Workshop: Shamanism, Dying, and Beyond™
https://www.shamanism.org/workshops/shamanism-dying-and-beyond/

Learn more about shamanism and shamanic workshops by visiting the website of the Foundation for Shamanic Studies: https://www.shamanism.org

Transcript

Catherine's Journey to Core Shamanism

Speaker 0:07

You are listening to the Way of the Shaman Podcast with your host, Kerri Husman. The content shared in the Way of the Shaman Podcast is for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional or therapeutic advice. The views expressed by the host and interviewees reflect their personal experiences and opinions. Please consult with an appropriate licensed professional if you have any medical, psychological, or legal concerns.

Kerri 0:39

Hello, and welcome to the Way of the Shaman Podcast. I'm your host, Kerri Husman, and today I have my friend Katherine Hughes. She is a faculty member that teaches throughout Eastern Canada and primarily in Ontario. We're going to be talking about her journey with core shamanism as well as the workshop Shamanism, Dying, and Beyond. Welcome, Catherine.

Catherine 1:02

Oh, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it.

Kerri 1:05

I'm so excited to have you here. And so as we start with most folks, tell us a little bit about how you came to find core shamanism and what its impact has been on your life.

Catherine 1:18

Well, I think if you had told me 20 years ago that this is what I was doing, I would have laughed. It was not on my radar, it was nothing I grew up with. It wasn't anything that would have been something I would have considered. But I had a significant illness in, you know, when my kids were young, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And during that time period, I sort of uh had the idea that if I could take some responsibility for getting the illness in the first place, I could also take some responsibility for the healing. And that led me down a road of looking at alternative medicine. I I also did um uh you know traditional medicine, uh, you know, chemo surgery, radiation, awful stuff. Um, in order to be able to raise my children. I really focused on raising my children. But I also thought that there was a psychological and a spiritual component to it. And so that sent me down a path of looking at natural, naturopathic medicine, and and in that realm I learned a lot, but it but that wasn't really the end game. Um and so through that um I was introduced to shamanism and I started to sort of and also the idea of of uh the spiritual connection and I had to sort of figure it out. I realized that in my childhood and things I'd had experiences, but I had no reference for it. Um and so that sort of sent me down a path of exploring different things, and then I was introduced to a shaman and I came, I went to see her. She is a Lakota shaman, and she happens to be a field associate for the foundation. And she she talked to me and she just said, the spirits want to work with you. Um and so, you know, how how do how are you getting so she gave me some advice and she suggested, you know, I looked at there are all kinds of choices out there about shamanism and um of what to study. And she said uh because I come from an art background, it I was concerned about cultural appropriation and and being in that world because that was something that we experienced in the art world as well. And so she suggested the foundation because of core shamanism and the fact that it's not culturally based. And that sort of opened the door um for me with this, and I sort of explored different things, but I always came back to to this work and and how it shaped me and how it helped me heal and it helped me to understand better myself. Um and so that's sort of how it all started. You know, it was 2010.

Kerri 4:00

Wow.

Catherine 4:01

When that began, yeah.

Kerri 4:03

So a real opportunity for growth and for healing for your own self before ever going down the path of offering this to others or to become a faculty member.

Catherine 4:14

I never ever, if you would have told me that I would be a practitioner today, even as when I was starting, it was the last thing. I joke that there are heel marks two miles back. A spirit slowly, you know, drove me in this direction. I I was sort of interested in the teaching part because I I'm a teacher by training, and my teacher was a retired um Glenn Campbell, my first teacher, was a retired principal, wonderful teacher. And he sort of suggested that I might consider that. But you have to become a practitioner to go with that, is part of the the rules and and also the requirement or the expectation. And so I dragged my heels for you know as long as possible before I got to that. And now my practice is so important to me. Um, but it wasn't something that I aspired to, which is interesting. I went from my own healing. When you're when you're going through, I was I was because I was young, I went through really significant chemo and and radiation, and and I couldn't read a book, I couldn't watch TV, I couldn't, so I had to sit there and kind of during those periods of time really just reflect. It slowed me down. Um and I, you know, it it it allowed me time to really explore and go inward, you know? Yeah.

Kerri 5:32

Well, I'm so glad that the healing that you received was exactly what you needed.

The Interconnection of Art and Shamanism

Catherine 5:37

Yeah, yeah, it's changed my life. Yeah.

Kerri 5:41

And so while you've already hinted at this a little bit, could you tell us about your background in art and art education and how that maybe has influenced your practice as well as your approach to teaching for the faculty?

Catherine 5:59

Well, it's it's interesting. I see them as very interconnected because I I got into art teaching. I I went to art college, and it's such a funny thing because when you're in ordinary s ordinary society, I'm an out-of-the-box creative thinker. And then I go to art college and I'm not I'm not wild enough, or I'm not, you know, it's like you you're you're in this sort of mix. And so I became an art teacher because I wanted to create a place where people who were out-of-the-box thinkers and didn't quite fit had a place, right, where they could express themselves. And I went into art education, so I would end up working in museums where I would have to be explaining or or helping people interact with modern art or things that they didn't understand and facilitating an experience, but not telling them what to see.

Kerri 6:51

Right.

Catherine 6:52

And so that's very much like this work because we are we are showing people the way, we're giving them the method, but we're not telling them what to see. And I think that that is very, they're very interconnected. My circles, you know, I also um as an art teacher and uh as a museum educator, for me it's really important that people have the ability to access it wherever they are, whoever they are. And so it's a very inclusive environment. Some art environments can be very elitist, right? And the art educator is there to bridge the gap, right? And so I feel very much like my teaching in this work is about inclusivity. You know, I really uh everybody is welcome, regardless of of their previous or or current religion, regardless of race, regardless of culture. Let's let's all come together and explore, and each person will have their independent experience, the same as when we create artwork or view artwork. So that to me is they're very, very similar.

The Influence of Shamanism in Catherine’s Life

Kerri 7:55

Thank you for that, Catherine. That really does tie it together in such a beautiful way. And so when you think about um your experience studying with the foundation, learning all the things you've been learning over these years about yourself, about the world, about non-ordinary reality, how do you feel it has possibly changed or influenced your perspective on the world and on life in general?

Catherine 8:24

Well, that's interesting. I think that I had a very interesting experience with a participant lately whose worldview was quite um dire. And she felt that this world was horrible and that the spirit world was something much more beautiful. And and I disagreed because of my experiences. One of the things I love about shamanism is is it has created like I see the beauty in the world around me, even despite the challenges. And um it has shaped my worldview of seeing that this world has everything, it has joy, it has challenges, it has tragedy, it has grief. But in all of that, uh it's irreplaceable. When you go to the spirit world, it's beautiful and and and and can be challenging depending on what aspect of the world you're in. But this there's you can't replace this. You can't replace what we have. And we spend a lot of our time trying to be outside of our bodies, you know, our e i i because it's painful sometimes and because we go through things. And what I find with this work has done is it's brought me back into my body. It has brought me back to be able to appreciate the sunshine. Um, you know, the sunshine on the snow, like we're living in right now, I'm living in full-on winter here. Right? And the diamonds on the snow, all of those sorts of things. I see them differently than I and appreciate it differently than I would have before. I recognize it as part of the totality of life, right? Yeah. And and those spiritual aspects just weave in in and out of it, right? It's we're immersed in it.

Kerri 10:09

It's a much different experience when you can have a relationship with the trees.

Catherine 10:15

Yeah.

Kerri 10:16

You know, so you can be present, be grounded, be here, but still go into non-ordinary reality, have the conversation with the tree, connect with it, the rock, the meadow, the hill, and and still also then be present and walk the walk. So I get your point entirely, because there are lots of things going on in the world that are upsetting, that maybe may be frightening, but we are still here to have this human experience as a spirit at the same time. So we have to find that balance, what's right, and really build that right relationship with ourselves and with the planet.

Catherine 10:57

Yeah, we can't have, you can't have the spirits have taught me that I work with it through their teachings, is you can't have joy without experiencing the other. If we block the negative and we block those feelings, we can't have joy. But at the same time as human beings, because we're uh this is um such a complex universe or world, and we're exposed to so many things. What this uh what I've been told is that, or what I've been taught uh through my work with the spirits is that we are not meant as human beings to embody that at all times. Our nervous systems can't handle it. We you know, we have to find a way to be able to modulate that. Um, and that is one of the things that I've learned through shamanism and through this work, is this ability to be able to modulate what we're experiencing in a way that we can handle which isn't overwhelming.

Kerri 11:52

Right. You know, and the helping spirits are so incredibly capable in that area, asking for that help to modulate when you need to, when they need to hold your heart, when it's too much for you in that moment.

Catherine 12:06

Yeah, and that's the beauty of power animals, and they're you know, especially in the beginning, especially even with clients or people who are not going to experience this work from learning to journey, just even understanding that these power animals, these helping, compassionate, guardian type spirits are available there to help us. I I joke that they're like a universal adapter, right? They can stand in front of us and help to modulate the current or whatever it is we're we're experiencing until we're strong enough to be able to modulate it on our own.

Kerri 12:38

That's right.

Catherine 12:39

You know? Yeah.

Kerri 12:41

Thank you for that, Catherine. And I do want to ask, um, how has shamanism and your practice of shamanism impacted your family life, especially as a parent?

Catherine 12:53

Well, that's a very interesting question because I have three children and they're quite spaced out in age. So my oldest is 10 years older than my youngest. And so, in the span of learning this work, the youngest has been around in that time period. But I have, it's changed how I parent, but I also I have a my daughter is um now 26, going to be 27, my eldest, and she's special needs and and um is autistic, nonverbal, uh hearing impaired, developmentally delayed, and is dependent on my husband and I uh for her care. Um and the spirits and this work have really taught me a lot about how how I can have this person who is dependent on me for everything, and yet she's a sovereign being and she has her own journey. And it really taught me to kind of step back some hard lessons, some hard lessons, uh, to step back and respect that she has her own path and journey in this life. Um, and it's shaped how I work with her, uh, you know, both as as a parent and as a caregiver. Um, but then it's also trickled down to how I treat my sons as well. Um this work has been indispensable in teaching me how to work uh you know, how to engage with um my daughter Amara in a way that is uh uh rich for both of us.

Kerri 14:26

Oh, beautiful.

Catherine 14:27

Yeah, yeah. I've I've I can't even we could spend hours talking about that, but maybe another day. Yeah, yeah.

The Shamanic Healing Process

Kerri 14:35

Thank you for that. Yeah, and and it is so it's so heartening to know that that this work can help in ways that you know obviously you didn't go into it for this reason, and this has been a benefit to your entire family as a result.

Catherine 14:51

Yeah, there's a benefit to problem solving in care for my daughter that I've that had some great guidance on how to navigate getting some help to to work with her. Um navigating how to respect her for who she is without trying to change her.

Kerri 15:09

Right.

Catherine 15:09

You know, that she's living her own life as she is and to respect that. Um and then also this I've had uh help and guidance when my daughter has been severely ill and can't communicate. I've g been given um very good advice about how to approach that and what kind of care to get her. But I've also, as she's gotten older, the spirits have said that uh, you know, sometimes I ask questions and they say it's none of your business because she's her own person. And there's a very big permission aspect of it. Even though she's dependent on us, she still has her own path. And so a real tough lesson on sovereignty, you know, that we have to re I have to respect. So sometimes I'll ask questions that in order to care for her, and they'll just say it's not for you. You know?

Understanding Core Shamanism

Kerri 16:01

Yeah, really respecting the the ethical boundaries and the permissions and consent that are so important as far as that ethical backbone of core shamanism. So tell us a little bit about uh core shamanism. Like could you explain to us what that concept is, especially in modern times?

Catherine 16:25

Well, to me, the number one thing that that uh comes to mind is the fact that it's an independent spirituality, you know, and and that each of us uh comes to it as an independent being and is going to have independent experiences. And so as a faculty member, I'm just facilitating someone having their own experience, right? Which I think is so so important. Um Michael Harner looked at universal and near universal practices. So he had studied with with indigenous cultures, shamanic cultures, and then he looked at what was common around the world, right, in different cultures. And that could be in um, you know, that could be included in early Judaism or early Christianity. You can see those seeds there. Um you can see those seeds of shamanic practice in places like Sicily and in the Balkans and all in in everywhere in in the world. And what he looked at is what was common and universal or near universal. And so what I like about it is that it's independent and you have your lens of your culture, whatever that is. And in our circles now, we have people, you know, in his day he was bringing it to Westerners, but within the Western culture, there are many, many, many different cultures. And so then people can look at these universal practices and then go back and say, okay, how does that relate to my my cultural background? You know, where are the seeds there that maybe aren't there now? And so for me, uh what I find the number one thing is that it's independent. Uh it really, and that people shape the it's not a belief system, people shape their view based on their experiences, and that shifts over time. The experiences I had ten years ago and the experiences I'm having now, and the experiences I'm gonna have ten years from now, uh you're gonna shape um how I view this. It's it's a it's an ever expanding sort of understanding um of the cosmos.

Kerri 18:33

That's right, because really you're never going to run out of questions to ask the helping spirits, and they are never going to run out of ways to help you grow.

Catherine 18:41

Yeah, it's uh for me it's an endless uh lifetime, many lifetimes of study if if that if if that is what happens for us. The jury's out on that one, on my experiences, I'm not sure.

Kerri 18:53

Yeah.

Catherine 18:54

Yeah.

Kerri 18:55

So can you shift gears a little bit and tell us what it's what participants would expect during a typical shamanic healing session?

Catherine 19:06

Well, I work very much in the way that I've been taught through the foundation. We have a we have a lot of uh workshops and experiences and teachers who have practices who help to shape how my practice is today. Absolutely. Um so I typically somebody reaches out to me and then I send them a little bit of an email back that gives a little bit of information about how I work, and I ask for express permission to journey on their behalf. And so then I journey on their behalf and I give them a little bit of information so we can have informed consent, right? And then once that is established, then we set up a time to meet. And it's either on Zoom or it's in my office. I have a an office that I use a few times a month if I see people in person. And I'll answer questions, we call in the spirits. Um in my I don't typically touch people unless I ask expressly. It's just the way I work, um, the way I've learned to work, and and it, and it um it seems it it's completely effective that way. That's just how I've chosen to work. Um and then I go through, I'll call in the spirits, and then I'll start to move these helping, compassionate spirits that we work with, and I work with their power to help you know work on the healing for the person. And some of that can be emotional, um, you know, it it's a variety we we can we're looking at all aspects of well-being of a person, whether that's physical, emotional, spiritual. Um, and I have a tendency to sing a lot in my practice because that's the way the spirits like to work with me. Don't have a beautiful voice, it's not a trained voice. Um, but I've have found that there's a lot of power in it when I when I allow those things to happen. So there'll be some singing and and some movement, and I'll be moving my hands and using my rattles and using my drum. And then when it's done, it's done. I'll give the person a little bit of time to integrate, and then we have a little conversation. My spirits like to give a bit of homework, right? So often there's a little bit of homework for the person to do, and and then I typically, you know, leave it in their hands to decide whether the when they when they're ready to come back, if they need to come back. Because I think it's important that they're they have that power. It's not me telling them when to come back. I have the the spirits for the most part leave it in their hands because they need to integrate the healing that has just occurred, right?

Kerri 21:36

Absolutely.

Exploring the Shamanism, Dying, and Beyond Workshop

Catherine 21:37

Yeah. And so I you know what's beautiful about it is I've built relationships with some of the clients over two, three, four, five years. It's so beautiful. You know, some people come once and don't come again. But some, you know, are working on something over the years and it's so beautiful to see how their life changes and how they grow and how they're able to meet the challenges that. they have you know with with a greater uh greater power and certainty mm-hmm yeah yeah the the unburdening that comes from a shamanic healing session is really irreplaceable yeah uh but also the return of power yes we we tend to leak power for a variety of reasons it's not always through trauma sometimes it's just through life events making choices you know we tend to leak this power you know and so to see people living fully with that that's pretty pretty beautiful it is beautiful yeah so shifting gears again we're going to start talking about the workshop shamanism dying and beyond and I know that when I asked which workshop you would like to talk about there was no hesitation that you really enjoy this workshop and I and I I couldn't agree with you more it's a phenomenal workshop and you know it's it's companion the the virtual version shaman as psychopomp teaches these same practices but tell us you know from your perspective what is it that you enjoy so much about teaching this workshop can I tell you a little story first absolutely okay so because I don't think I can have one without the other so I had a number of deaths in my family over the years and um and I felt that I was not trained or properly educated in my family structure in order to deal with those deaths in a way that I felt was respectful like I was expected to mourn I was expected to go through the motions of of supporting the deaf and of uh planning in my case always be being the one to plan funerals and those sorts of things but I didn't feel it in my family structure or even in society today in in in I I wasn't equipped to deal with death. It's something we don't talk about it's something that is sort of shoved away it's avoided and and so i in getting towards um this work I was so excited to take a shamanism dying and beyond what you know in person before we had the online version because I felt like oh finally I can I can get the tools that I need to just meet death in a way that feels um appropriate and respectful. Yes. And so for me that's how I ended up in that. So that leads into what do I think is is is so beautiful about this workshop is that people have an opportunity to explore what might happen to them after they die. And in that way they are able to deal sometimes with fear that they might have but then they get firsthand experience of that so that when they're in a situation of working with somebody or a family member they have some experience. It takes the fear out of it and it also gives them some sort of idea about what is possible. Another thing that happens in in that workshop that I think is wonderful is they have an opportunity to to uh meet an ancestor who is in who is well who's in the upper or lower world. And um for many people that's extremely healing because it's very personal.

Kerri 25:29

Yes you know they know what that ancestor may have struggled with prior to death whether it have been addiction or a physical illness and to see them well uh thriving it's just remarkable.

The Journey of Souls: A Beautiful Transition

Personal Transformations Through Death and Grief

Catherine 25:45

Yeah and and so then the you know the skill of learning to be a psychopomp I consider it a public service. Absolutely you know so the idea of conducting souls so you you you you go out on a journey and you engage with souls in the middle world who may or may not need assistance. Not everybody in the middle world needs assistance. Sometimes they have things they're doing or they're here cultural backgrounds, souls stay around that sort of thing. But you can work with souls that need some assistance and I think we learn a little bit more about what holds people back in life. You know, when they get to death why what are they afraid of? What what is it that that's holding them to this world? You know the confusion in the way that they've died all of those sorts of things I think can be very life affirming because it changes how we re respond. Um and to be able to conduct a soul and to be able to deliver them to the destination of human souls in either the upper or lower world is such a you know such a beautiful opportunity. It's it's I feel like it's almost like akin to a birth process. You know, bringing a child into the world welcoming a child into the world is like you know helping someone leave this world and continue their soul's evolution whatever that is I think is beautiful. So the workshop whether people decide to ever become a shamanic healer or not and of course with me when I talk about those heel marks behind me you know for me I did a lot of psychopomp work because it's something I could do in private. It's something you people asked me to do family members it was something I could do to contribute to the community without having to sort of out myself or or become more formal about it. It was something I could do in my own time and you know I it just it it is shaped it has shaped how I how I how I live now and and one of the beautiful things about that excuse me is that I've had deaths in my family since I learned that work and I've been able to meet it very differently and and and and really been able to contribute in a way that um feels nourishing for everyone. Could you expand a little bit on that what what has shifted when you consider approaching death before and feeling a little bit empty handed as far as resources and following the drill as far as the family's wake or funeral however they would do things and now when someone is nearing passing or passing or those days and weeks afterward how would you say your approach to it has changed well you know when you're in a family system you can only meet it the way you want to but there's other people involved right so part of this is that I I can't push my bel my my experiences on anyone I can only be open to to what comes and I give you an example of my father had dementia when he passed in 2023 and I had been caring for him for a number of years. He was never open to this work. And so those were conversations that we really didn't have and I had to respect his wishes. I also had to respect my brother in that situation. Right. But I could meet that death in a way that worked for me. Right? So we still went through the the classic family tradition of the way we handled the death and the way we handled the funeral and I honored his wishes you know completely. But I could change how I met with it and I was open to having conversations with anybody who was willing to have those conversations.

Kerri 29:33

Nice.

Catherine 29:33

And what I found was the caregivers my father was in a veterans uh center the caregivers recognized that me and we could have very real conversations. Oh beautiful you know so it's not always you know you have to meet those conversations where they come. But I had another situation with my aunt uh even more recently I just happened to arrive in California when she was dying and I d and I had planned the trip six months in advance. So the spirits were looking after us in that way the universe and she was a deeply religious person but she was very open to what I did and so I was able to speak with her the last day before she died and she would describe that there were beings behind me who were and so she was i in between veils, you know seeing those those psychopomp beings that come to help family members and greet them and and so she asked me about that and I said well I said you're just in two worlds at the same time she said am I crazy? I said no you're not I said you're in two worlds at the same time you're your one foot is in this world and the other foot is in the other world. I said are you frightened of these beings she said no no they they they seem very kind and I said it's okay so I said when the time comes you can go with them. You know the way because she was she had her religious uh background and she you know she she was very content and ready to go and um and so the last thing she said to her daughter in law was I'm going to a new world wow you know so that was like a full circle moment for me. I mean it's not always like that you know but for me it was it was a an affirmation that that it affirmed that everything I had learned was contributing. You know you know I could contribute to the well being of my family.

Kerri 31:30

I I personally feel that this is you know when you think about the folks who work in hospice and they will commonly describe that the person who's near passing will talk about um they'll be having a conversation with their mother or father who's not sitting in the chair but but uh is experiencing them sitting in the chair and or they'll be talking about people being in the room that are oftentimes relatives who've already passed. And and this is just accepted. This isn't psychosis this is an accepted part of passing and and many people who are trained as death doulas for example will have um a real keen capacity to be grounded and hold space for the the the family of the departing as well as the departing but but none of them know how to do psychopomp none of them know how to assist that soul if there's a need for that assistance. And so this is in my opinion the piece that's missing this is the part that can be so valuable for the family members and the person departing if they're open to this work because they know with confidence that their loved one is being escorted exactly where they need to go if that's needed.

Catherine 32:50

And that's not always needed. And when they're ready.

Kerri 32:52

And when they're ready yes on their terms.

The Impact of Wandering Spirits on the Living

Catherine 32:56

Yeah I think that you know I have a tendency to think if if we have a world a a middle world where we live that is full of spirits who may be wandering or lost not all are but if you think about battlefields every year I come from a military background family and so every year I in honor of Remembrance Day which is here in Canada you know we have different every country has different ways of looking at that or different dates I do a circle where we go and we go to the battlefields and we look for people whether they be combatants or whether they be uh civilians is there someone there who needs assistance how does that impact us when in those places there are hundreds and hundreds of souls who still think the war is on. Right, right or you go and you journey to a hospital and the hospital it there's a number of spirits there who are wandering the corridors not either knowing they're dead or for a variety of reasons.

Kerri 33:59

You know how does that impact the living right right some people are unaware others sense that there's something up you know they feel it they sense it that there's and oftentimes there's that sense of sorrow or fear that they're picking up on and and being able to alleviate that suffering of the suffering beings who are still here have not moved on yet you would think has to have a positive impact on the planet on the neighborhood on that hospital ward.

Catherine 34:30

Yeah you know and I think in traditional cultures you know worldwide they put more attention into into supporting the dead you know and the souls of the dead many cultures do. And in religion you know in organized religion there was a sense of doing that. You know I had a beautiful experience sitting vigil with a friend of mine's mother and it was actually really helpful for me because it it was an Anglican minister and he this woman had dementia and so she was and she wasn't unable to talk and unable to interact and she was in the death process. And the minister came and he was he was so kind and so compassionate and he you know gave her the sort of the ri ritual of of the po of last rites and and um and I watched her mouth along with him the words so even though in her state she knew the words and it was all about unburdening unburdening her soul so that she could transcend. And I saw I that was a really beautiful lesson for me having grown up in religion and organized religion and then dis in never being comfortable with it or but I was really given a teaching about the beauty in some of that. And I think that you know there's the beauty in all all of these things but we need to practice them however we're going to practice them. And so there's a need in shamanism because we're not we've lost some of those practices and we're not tending our dead we're not taught how to tend our dead at least in my experience that is what I found in my family. How to meet it how to tend how to help if if when necessary so thinking about this it's it's really interesting because the beauty of there not being traditions is that it's like a blank slate to some extent there's an open opportunity to work with your helping spirits to build ceremony to build tradition and this doesn't mean of course forcing your ideas or what you've discovered on others it's much more about opportunity for growth opportunity for for feeling more comfort with the death process even for yourself even if you don't know when that's going to be but you've had you know life-threatening experiences that have brought new perspective to you yeah they they I I like what you said uh Carrie about working with the spirits to develop ceremony it it's that we often are are born into cultures or or families that have types of ceremonies and over the way depending you know they've lost meaning or they're they've changed and and so we have an opportunity as an in it as I say independent spirituality of figuring out what works for us and what works with us in conjunction with what we've learned in this world to create a a way of meeting death whether it be death or whether meeting birth or anything in a way that feels right and feels like an honoring right and um you know we can create rituals if it with the help of uh the knowledge that we receive that work for us. I find that we're still I am still in at least in my family structure working within a a cultural framework and honoring you know respecting those things. But I also have a choice um to to rewrite how I might want to go out in this world or how I might want to be honored in that way and what might happen. Yeah. Yeah it's nice to have those options yeah yeah it it's nice to be able to create something that's meaningful that isn't sort of layered on us without understanding or really fully embracing the meaning right?

Kerri 38:31

Mm-hmm.

Understanding the Safety of Psychopomp Work

Life-Affirming Lessons from Shamanism

Catherine 38:32

Yeah so a different question about psychopomp which is conductor of souls um what about students who might be interested in learning this work but they're maybe concerned about their own religious or cultural background maybe fearful of middle world spirits the suffering beings how do you help them understand that this work is actually quite safe to do very effective work once they've learned the framework and and really the steps of the process well one thing I've started telling us uh participants recently is that we live in the middle world and the middle world is full of spirits whether we see them or interact with them or not they're here they're already here the tree spirits the nature spirits the deceased souls at the hospital they're they're everywhere right so the difference is that we're coming we're approaching them with some knowledge and understanding they're here anyway right and many sensitive people feel them or have experiences without understanding you know without having the ability to interact in a way that that works for them. So first of all we work with helping compassionate spirits you know we start the reason why Michael set this up is that we start by introducing participants to helping compassionate spirits in the upper or lower world that can travel the worlds and so that they can provide us with guidance and support power and protection right so we start with that and then we go out into the middle world with these beings helping us helping us to understand what we're experiencing and then we interact with these middle world spirits but in a way that is grounded and we have protection and we have some knowledge and understanding. So one of the things I'd like to ask is you've already alluded to some of the key teachings in shamanism dying and beyond learning to you know visiting ancestors learning about what it's like after they've passed is there anything else that you feel comfortable sharing with our listeners about the practices that student the students and participants in this workshop will learn in shamanism dying and beyond I think that um this workshop is very life affirming I think that through this work we can learn a lot about what prevents us from living fully I think that you know I personally came back with a greater love of this life that I have despite some of my you know previous experiences which were also life affirming through my illness. But I think that I really do feel that this work contributes to the way we walk in this world and the way we that we communicate with other people. Whether you ever learn extraction or all of these other healing methods this one workshop really contributes to how we walk in this world and the conversations that we can have with people and our willingness to share both joy and grief. That's true in a meaningful way. It shapes it you I do not believe you can come out of this workshop and not be changed.

Kerri 42:20

I would agree with that.

Catherine 42:22

I think it is it is one of the workshops that will change how you walk on the earth probably for the rest of your life yeah and I think that's a contribution to the well being of humanity personally.

Kerri 42:37

It really is.

Catherine 42:40

So what advice would you give someone who is curious about shamanic work but not sure where to start well I think if you're curious about shamanic work I would seek out learning to journey because it's something that's very personal. Um something that you can do for yourself. It's a life skill as far it's kind of like learning to swim as far as I'm concerned. Where you can get your own answers.

Kerri 43:13

Right.

Catherine 43:13

You know so but I would really encourage people to learn in a way that is not a guided journey.

Kerri 43:22

Right.

Catherine 43:23

I really feel strongly about that there's a lot of things going on right now where people are talking about guided journeys where the power is in the person doing the guiding and it's and it's shaping the person's experience and therefore it's not independent anymore. And so for me I would the first thing if you're interested in learning just shamanism is I would pick up Michael Harner's Way of the Shaman I have so many people who come to workshops who started there. He lays a lot of things out. You can experiment and explore in that but it nothing replaces a teacher a facilitator who can help you guide you know, not guide you, but but give you the steps right to go on your own experience and and therefore to um to be able to meet and have an experience in the upper or lower world um to receive information that is tailored to you. I think that that's a life skill. And I think that's the place to start personally. You can do a lot of reading but nothing replaces the teachings that you receive in the in non-ordinary reality.

Kerri 44:34

I couldn't agree more. And with that Catherine I would love to thank you for joining us today on the Way of the Shaman podcast. If you'd like to learn more about Catherine and her workshops that are coming up or any of our other workshops besides Shamanism Dying and Beyond, please check us out at shamanism.org. Thanks for tuning in.

Catherine 44:54

Thank you, Kerri. It was a pleasure